Is the Isle of Man Government becoming despotic?

[Two-lane]

The big fuss started when Moulton wrote an email to Jonathon King and the Speaker. This was the email that Hooper responded to in a critical manner, but subsequently did not provide any details.

Around that time Cannan wrote an email to all MHKs. This is the start of the email:

"This matter started when Mr Moulton, in a public broadcast, stated that three named senior officers
of Government had:
1.Conspired to tone down clinical advice to COMIN
2.Concocted their own evidence
3.Presented concocted medical advice
4.Had liability to “corporate manslaughter”
5.Caused unnecessary deaths

Edited to add:

"These deeply emotive allegations were made against three officers without any substance or proof.
There has been no such findings or conclusions reached by any inquiry or court."

1.

My recollection of recent news is that they did "tone down" the data supplied by Ranson

2.  3.

The word "concocted" has varying degrees of meaning. In his email Moulton first used the word within quotes -"... manipulated Comin's policy mandate by "concocting" their own version of that advice...". It seems to be accepted that they did modify Ranson's advice. So, it could be assumed that part of the presentation was "concocted" by  them.

4.

Moulton states as part of his description of what was happening - "There might also be serious criminal consequences such as unlawful act manslaughter". That is no different to me telling you that if you drive over a pedestrian you may be charged with manslaughter. (Unless Cannan was claiming that they were above the law and immune from prosecution). I did not see the word corporate in Moulton's document.

5.

Moulton's words are: "It is well known that CoMin's delay in closing our borders and imposing restrictions after 13 March 2020, as Dr Ranson had advised, caused unnecessary deaths". That is a point of view other people have, but Moulton does not state that the three named senior officers were responsible - unless you consider that the "toning down" resulted in decisions that resulted in deaths. That is, as people say these days, a bit of a stretch if it came to a court case (and, to add a cynical note, even less likely when you have unlimited taxpayer's money for lawyers).

Edited November 9, 2023 by Two-lane

[Cueey Lewis And The News]

13 minutes ago, Two-lane said:

Moulton's words are: "It is well known that CoMin's delay in closing our borders and imposing restrictions after 13 March 2020, as Dr Ranson had advised, caused unnecessary deaths".

That’s at best speculative and at worst bollocks and you can see why people would threaten to withdraw their support or ask for lawyers to be present when someone starts talking about corporate manslaughter and causing unnecessary deaths. The whole supposition that the IOM had absolutely no covid before the 15th March and that all the Covid got on the boat and suddenly came here following the weekend in question because someone changed a PowerPoint is basically almost preposterous. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Cueey Lewis And The News

[Two-lane]

3 minutes ago, Cueey Lewis And The News said:

That’s at best speculative and at worst bollocks and you can see why people would threaten to withdraw their support or ask for lawyers to be present when someone starts talking about corporate manslaughter and causing unnecessary deaths

It was not the covid aspect I was addressing.

Cannan stated in his letter "...Mr Moulton, in a public broadcast, stated that three named senior officers of Government had ... Caused unnecessary deaths "

Moulton did not write that.

And if someone is even remotely worried about a manslaughter charge, I doubt they are going to say anything without a lawyer present.

[ian rush]

Moulton’s trying to turn himself into the story, using Dr Ranson’s narrative that she was the only canary singing for closure.

[HiVibes]

30 minutes ago, ian rush said:

Dr Ranson’s narrative that she was the only canary singing for closure.

We employ a chief medical officer to provide expert advice when you have a medical emergency, and to present how grave the issue really is in medical terms, pretty sure at the time almost all medical staff at the hospital were in public agreement with her, so I doubt any claim that she thinks she was a lone voice stacks up, she was line manger of the islands medical staff and was reflecting a shared conclusion, sounds like yet more government spin, seems IOM government stooges can't stop themselves or ever admit they were wrong.

Even if she were a lone voice, her expert opinion far outweighed a project manager / former poptastic local DJ on a serious medical emergency. No matter how nice and likable he is, Dan overstepped the mark but rather than taking some accountabliity we have constant shenagins and deceit at tax payer expense, Moulton is a drama queen but he still has a valid point no matter how many in government wish to discredit him.

Edited November 9, 2023 by HiVibes

[John Wright]

17 minutes ago, HiVibes said:

We employ a chief medical officer to provide expert advice when you have a medical emergency, and to present how grave the issue really is in medical terms, pretty sure at the time almost all medical staff at the hospital were in public agreement with her, so I doubt any claim that she thinks she was a lone voice stacks up, she was line manger of the islands medical staff and was reflecting a shared conclusion, sounds like yet more government spin, seems IOM government stooges can't stop themselves or ever admit they were wrong.

Even if she were a lone voice, her expert opinion far outweighed a project manager / former poptastic local DJ on a serious medical emergency. No matter how nice and likable he is, Dan overstepped the mark but rather than taking some accountabliity we have constant shenagins and deceit at tax payer expense, Moulton is a drama queen but he still has a valid point no matter how many in government wish to discredit him.

Except that’s not factually correct. Ranson was DHSC  Medical Director at Nobles and designate for the same position at Manx Care. She wasn’t the head of the medical profession or service  on Island.

Henrietta Ewart was Director of Public Health, then sitting within DHSC. It was her role to advise on things like public health, things like pandemics.

Ranson and Ewart clearly didn’t agree, and at stages didn’t talk to one another, Ewart wouldn’t take calls or respond to texts from Ranson.

Their CS boss, of course was DHSC CEO Kathryn Magson.

She seems to have had a deep dislike for Ranson, the Tribunal sets out her unacceptable behaviour.

Its part of the role of the CS to précis and summarise conflicting and divergent advice into digestible form for ministers, who may not have technical expertise, or may, simply, be thick. That’s their job. And in terms of pandemic response Ewart was the person in the right place, the right person to seek advice from and to rely on. Yes, listen to what others had to say.

And there’ll have been a hot line to English public health and MoJ to find out what they were doing, what advice they were receiving.

The probability is that Covid was here. The reality is that we didn’t have draft emergency legislation for an immediate lockdown. It was all play by ear. Same as in England and everywhere else.

Even when IoM closed the borders how long did it take to allow people in and introduce home quarantine? And then when we had it, and reduced covid in the community we relaxed the testing and isolation requirements which allowed it back.

[HiVibes]

14 hours ago, John Wright said:

Except that’s not factually correct. Ranson was DHSC  Medical Director at Nobles and designate for the same position at Manx Care. She wasn’t the head of the medical profession or service  on Island.

No need to be a pompous dick, she was line manager for medics at Nobles, and it was about how the hospital would cope. 

[Roger Mexico]

44 minutes ago, HiVibes said:

No need to be a pompous dick, she was line manager for medics at Nobles, and it was about how the hospital would cope. 

She wasn't their line manager, but she was their representative and she clearly had consulted widely with them and with doctors outside the Hospital.  So it wasn't just her opinion that was being watered down, but a collective one.

[ricardo]

The answer to the thread’s question must surely be a resounding ‘yes’. All governments appear to be moving nicely along the road to authoritarianism - the supposed ‘pandemic’ gave all of them the opportunity to pay less heed to what is in their citizens’ best interests and award themselves extra powers.

Readers of this forum may be unaware of the concerted campaign by the World Health Organisation, complicity aided by over 120 governments, to secure powers over all nations ‘in the event of another pandemic’. It is frightening stuff.

Whilst contributors may wish to argue the minutiae of who did or didn’t do whatever during covid there is a much bigger picture. Millions around the World noticed that annual ‘flu seemed to magically disappear and that ‘flu season - during which some people die - was turned into a global theatre. Some believed the theatre and dutifully masked-up, and lined-up for their dubious shot, while others looked on in disbelief. Disbelief at human compliance with ‘instructions’ that often lacked logic or substance.

Below is a snapshot of today’s Twitter post by Dr Ahmad Malik, a UK doctor and previously respected heart surgeon. Along with 000’s of other doctors and health professionals, Dr Malik realised during covid that much of what we were told was nonsensical. More crucially, he like 000’s of others, also realized that none of the vaccines had been through the proper clinical trial testing regime and refused to be involved with the roll-out. He was threatened by hospital authorities for that and responded by starting his own podcast. Brave man. Unsurprisingly he later lost his job.

The IoM ‘covid inquiry’, like all the other ones, will no doubt find that ‘mistakes were made’ but will nonetheless legitimize governmental response to any future ‘pandemic’. And there will be more pandemics, because governments have discovered how useful they are for keeping control of their populations. Especially if they can get the W.H.O. to manage them..

Edited November 10, 2023 by ricardo

[The Voice of Reason]

11 hours ago, ricardo said:

The answer to the thread’s question must surely be a resounding ‘yes’. All governments appear to be moving nicely along the road to authoritarianism - the supposed ‘pandemic’ gave all of them the opportunity to pay less heed to what is in their citizens’ best interests and award themselves extra powers.

Readers of this forum may be unaware of the concerted campaign by the World Health Organisation, complicity aided by over 120 governments, to secure powers over all nations ‘in the event of another pandemic’. It is frightening stuff.

Whilst contributors may wish to argue the minutiae of who did or didn’t do whatever during covid there is a much bigger picture. Millions around the World noticed that annual ‘flu seemed to magically disappear and that ‘flu season - during which some people die - was turned into a global theatre. Some believed the theatre and dutifully masked-up, and lined-up for their dubious shot, while others looked on in disbelief. Disbelief at human compliance with ‘instructions’ that often lacked logic or substance.

Below is a snapshot of today’s Twitter post by Dr Ahmad Malik, a UK doctor and previously respected heart surgeon. Along with 000’s of other doctors and health professionals, Dr Malik realised during covid that much of what we were told was nonsensical. More crucially, he like 000’s of others, also realized that none of the vaccines had been through the proper clinical trial testing regime and refused to be involved with the roll-out. He was threatened by hospital authorities for that and responded by starting his own podcast. Brave man. Unsurprisingly he later lost his job.

The IoM ‘covid inquiry’, like all the other ones, will no doubt find that ‘mistakes were made’ but will nonetheless legitimize governmental response to any future ‘pandemic’. And there will be more pandemics, because governments have discovered how useful they are for keeping control of their populations. Especially if they can get the W.H.O. to manage them..

Odd he says that these 4 things aren’t just his beliefs they are also facts and then goes on to say “nothing  you can do will change my opinion”

For what it’s worth my opinion is that in respect of 1 and 2 he is talking rubbish

In respect of 3 and 4 he is absolutely correct. ( my opinion)

 

[code99]

Not holding a public Covid Inquiry would have given weight to wacky conspiracy theories, and the UK and the IOM are not alone in conducting reviews of their governments’ handling of the Covid pandemic - other Western democracies are doing similar reviews. In France, they even opened criminal proceedings “alleging government negligence”.

The Inquiries that follow ‘watershed events’ (e.g., Lucy Letby’s killing spree of babies in an NHS hospital) may not be cheap but they are an essential part of a healthy democracy. Not only do these Inquiries provide material from which ‘lessons are learnt’, they also give special recognition to the victims and the families of the victims. Covid’s casualties included numerous selfless medical staff who were not supplied with suitable PPE, key workers (bus drivers, cleaners, etc.,) who knowingly risked their lives to provide ‘essential services’. Yes, many of those who died were vulnerable old people but one person’s old biddy is another person’s beloved parent/grandparent/aunt. Some of our more elderly people are also war veterans who were celebrated at Remembrance Sunday ceremonies around the UK and the Isle of Man. In the UK, 231,324 human beings died from Covid. The then UK Prime Minister (who also nearly died from a Covid infection) ignored all of the health and safety rules which were implemented to limit number of sick and dying; his behaviour undermined the credibility of the UK Government as a whole. At the end of the day the UK’s death toll is one of the highest in Europe (higher than in France, Germany, Italy and Spain).

For a day or two, the Isle of Man had the (almost) highest number of recorded Covid cases per capita – ultimately 116 people lost their lives. IMHO, those who are belching the usual tripe ‘nothing to see here, time to move on’ often do so to protect vested interests by obscuring or even hiding the truth. The Manx public definitely need to know how our leaders and our elected representatives behaved throughout what was one of the worst crises that has happened during most of our life-times, and how and why critical decisions were reached. The actions of the IOM’s politicians and civil servants must be reviewed. In the UK the public opinion is firmly in favour of conducting thorough Covid Inquiry – why should IOM residents be kept in the dark like fungi about what transpired here?

[Cueey Lewis And The News]

Is Moulton selling up here after all this or just moving house?

[ricardo]

On 11/12/2023 at 4:59 PM, code99 said:

Not holding a public Covid Inquiry would have given weight to wacky conspiracy theories, and the UK and the IOM are not alone in conducting reviews of their governments’ handling of the Covid pandemic - other Western democracies are doing similar reviews. In France, they even opened criminal proceedings “alleging government negligence”.

The Inquiries that follow ‘watershed events’ (e.g., Lucy Letby’s killing spree of babies in an NHS hospital) may not be cheap but they are an essential part of a healthy democracy. Not only do these Inquiries provide material from which ‘lessons are learnt’, they also give special recognition to the victims and the families of the victims. Covid’s casualties included numerous selfless medical staff who were not supplied with suitable PPE, key workers (bus drivers, cleaners, etc.,) who knowingly risked their lives to provide ‘essential services’. Yes, many of those who died were vulnerable old people but one person’s old biddy is another person’s beloved parent/grandparent/aunt. Some of our more elderly people are also war veterans who were celebrated at Remembrance Sunday ceremonies around the UK and the Isle of Man. In the UK, 231,324 human beings died from Covid. The then UK Prime Minister (who also nearly died from a Covid infection) ignored all of the health and safety rules which were implemented to limit number of sick and dying; his behaviour undermined the credibility of the UK Government as a whole. At the end of the day the UK’s death toll is one of the highest in Europe (higher than in France, Germany, Italy and Spain).

For a day or two, the Isle of Man had the (almost) highest number of recorded Covid cases per capita – ultimately 116 people lost their lives. IMHO, those who are belching the usual tripe ‘nothing to see here, time to move on’ often do so to protect vested interests by obscuring or even hiding the truth. The Manx public definitely need to know how our leaders and our elected representatives behaved throughout what was one of the worst crises that has happened during most of our life-times, and how and why critical decisions were reached. The actions of the IOM’s politicians and civil servants must be reviewed. In the UK the public opinion is firmly in favour of conducting thorough Covid Inquiry – why should IOM residents be kept in the dark like fungi about what transpired here?

 

[Ringy Rose]

On 11/12/2023 at 4:59 PM, code99 said:

The Manx public definitely need to know how our leaders and our elected representatives behaved throughout what was one of the worst crises that has happened during most of our life-times, and how and why critical decisions were reached. The actions of the IOM’s politicians and civil servants must be reviewed.

The simple truth is that decisions were made quickly and, sometimes, on the hoof. There were numerous occasions when the first the civil servants manning the Covid teams and implementing the rules knew about a decision was when Quayle stood up and announced it at a press conference.

I genuinely don’t know what the inquiry here is hoping to achieve. We didn’t have the scandals relating to dodgy contracts with the likes of Serco because all the key services- the border teams, the vaccination teams- were all re-deployed civil servants.

There are crisis management lessons to be learned, definitely, but a lot of it seems to be about people wanting to blame someone, anyone, for what happened.

Those who demanded tighter lockdowns, who think people wouldn’t have died if we’d all just been locked in our houses for longer, want to blame people for not locking down sooner. Those who think the lockdowns were hugely damaging and unnecessary want to blame people for locking down too soon and for too long.

[Two-lane]

In the above chart, are they deaths or just cases?