Beggars in Strand Street

[thommo2010]

47 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

To be honest this is really shitty and makes us look like some bonkers banana republic 

https://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/four-jailed-after-begging-in-strand-street-628657

“The Isle of Man doesn’t have a homeless shelter and that is one of the reasons why they face criminal prosecutions today.”

So instead of just giving them a boat ticket to go home we gave them 21 days in prison as they had nowhere to live and then a boat ticket followed by an exclusion order not to come back. Presumably to allow enough time for them to be met at Heysham by UK immigration and deported. And because he had an gammy arm and a dodgy eye we did him under some crackpot 1896 begging law. 

Guess you missed the part where they were given a warning earlier this month but decided to return anyway, but don't let facts get in the way of a good rant 

[Banker]

6 minutes ago, thommo2010 said:

Guess you missed the part where they were given a warning earlier this month but decided to return anyway, but don't let facts get in the way of a good rant 

Presumably Offshore Manc wants us to build a migrant centre whilst they apply for asylum!! Unbelievable how some twist the facts 

[offshoremanxman]

12 minutes ago, thommo2010 said:

Guess you missed the part where they were given a warning earlier this month but decided to return anyway, but don't let facts get in the way of a good rant 

No I didn’t miss that bit. 

[Kopek]

Not particularly these people but even illegal immigrants can make a contribution to our economy.

Because they have to stay under the radar their contribution is lower thanit could be and leaves them open to abuse.

[John Wright]

I’m intrigued by the suggestion they’re illegal immigrants. 

My understanding of the post Brexit arrangements is that EU citizens can enter UK for 180 consecutive days stay without a visa.

If they’ve been in UK for longer than 180 it begs the question as to why that hasn’t been picked up in UK before now, and why it wasn’t picked up on 5 July?

The sentencing is interesting, also. 21 days, in practice means 10. They’d been in Police custody for 3. So it means  7 in Jurby, after the court date. The exclusion order doesn’t come into effect until 28 days after the court date.

[Kopek]

Is it secretly accepted that they weren't doing any harm? Apart from  the stolen item.

[jackwhite]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

I’m intrigued by the suggestion they’re illegal immigrants. 

My understanding of the post Brexit arrangements is that EU citizens can enter UK for 180 consecutive days stay without a visa.

If they’ve been in UK for longer than 180 it begs the question as to why that hasn’t been picked up in UK before now, and why it wasn’t picked up on 5 July?

The sentencing is interesting, also. 21 days, in practice means 10. They’d been in Police custody for 3. So it means  7 in Jurby, after the court date. The exclusion order doesn’t come into effect until 28 days after the court date.

...there was also mention of half in the community, so less in Jurby? Unless I've misunderstood that part.

Obviously there was the shoplifting part but I was shocked to see it resulted in a custodial sentence, however short. I thought we'd just have shipped them back. Appreciate it's not the first time but even so, seems extreme.

[John Wright]

6 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

...there was also mention of half in the community, so less in Jurby? Unless I've misunderstood that part.

Obviously there was the shoplifting part but I was shocked to see it resulted in a custodial sentence, however short. I thought we'd just have shipped them back. Appreciate it's not the first time but even so, seems extreme.

You’ve misunderstood. A 21 day sentence means 10 days inside. You only serve half. I factored that into my figures.

It can actually be significantly less on a short sentence. Releases don’t take place at weekends, so if you’re due out on a Sunday you’ll be released at 7am Friday.

So, 14 days imposed at a Monday Court will result in release at 7am Friday after, effectively, 31/2 days.

I suspect that having been given the “off you go” option on 5/7 this is the “sending a message” version.

[jackwhite]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

You’ve misunderstood. A 21 day sentence means 10 days inside. You only serve half. I factored that into my figures.

It can actually be significantly less on a short sentence. Releases don’t take place at weekends, so if you’re due out on a Sunday you’ll be released at 7am Friday.

So, 14 days imposed at a Monday Court will result in release at 7am Friday after, effectively, 31/2 days.

I suspect that having been given the “off you go” option on 5/7 this is the “sending a message” version.

OK heard of that before.

So what then is spending half of the sentence 'in the community'? Does that mean they've spent so many days already in custody so won't actually go back there and will, for a few days, do some community service type stuff?

[mad_manx]

3 hours ago, John Wright said:

I’m intrigued by the suggestion they’re illegal immigrants. 

My understanding of the post Brexit arrangements is that EU citizens can enter UK for 180 consecutive days stay without a visa.

If they’ve been in UK for longer than 180 it begs the question as to why that hasn’t been picked up in UK before now, and why it wasn’t picked up on 5 July?

The sentencing is interesting, also. 21 days, in practice means 10. They’d been in Police custody for 3. So it means  7 in Jurby, after the court date. The exclusion order doesn’t come into effect until 28 days after the court date.

Isn't it 90 days in 180 days ?  At least that's what I thought we can do when we go to schengen with a British passport..

[John Wright]

Just now, mad_manx said:

Isn't it 90 days in 180 days ?  At least that's what I thought we can do when we go to schengen with a British passport..

Yes but the UK equivalent is 180 days per year, can be taken in one block, not 90 in, 90 out, 90 in, 90 out, that the EU allows.

[mad_manx]

Had a quick look and looks like UK passport holders going to schnegen have a worse deal than EU passport holders coming  to the UK .

How did we end up worse off than them 😞

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by mad_manx

[John Wright]

21 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

OK heard of that before.

So what then is spending half of the sentence 'in the community'? Does that mean they've spent so many days already in custody so won't actually go back there and will, for a few days, do some community service type stuff?

Not sure. Was such a thing imposed in this case. Sounds like a combined sentence, immediate custody followed by supervision in community and subject to recall.

This is an explanation of the system in England

https://unlock.org.uk/advice/supervision-in-the-community-after-release-from-prison-and-on-probation-or-community-order/

[Roger Mexico]

13 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

So what then is spending half of the sentence 'in the community'? Does that mean they've spent so many days already in custody so won't actually go back there and will, for a few days, do some community service type stuff?

Well, as John pointed out in an earlier post, they can't be legally deported and barred from the Island until 28 days after sentencing (because of the potential for an appeal) but they have no contacts here and according to the Manx Radio piece:

Enache’s advocate told the court: [...]  “He wants more than anything to be released from custody and to leave the Isle of Man,” 

although:

All four advocates said their clients didn’t have the financial means to organise any onward travel.

In which case there are various funds that can help those leaving to get back to the UK.  But:

When quizzed by the high bailiff about how his client [Vasiliu] would return to the UK Paul Rogers told the court: “I’m more than happy to pay for the ferry. It’s not a lot of money – well for advocates it’s not.”

though she may be released a little later as she was given 28 days.

In practice those released after serving half (or less) of their sentence don't usually need to do anything else in the rest of the time except behave themselves on the Island.  Or get off it, so we don't know if they have behaved themselves or not.

[John Wright]

8 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Well, as John pointed out in an earlier post, they can't be legally deported and barred from the Island until 28 days after sentencing (because of the potential for an appeal) but they have no contacts here and according to the Manx Radio piece:

Enache’s advocate told the court: [...]  “He wants more than anything to be released from custody and to leave the Isle of Man,” 

although:

All four advocates said their clients didn’t have the financial means to organise any onward travel.

In which case there are various funds that can help those leaving to get back to the UK.  But:

When quizzed by the high bailiff about how his client [Vasiliu] would return to the UK Paul Rogers told the court: “I’m more than happy to pay for the ferry. It’s not a lot of money – well for advocates it’s not.”

though she may be released a little later as she was given 28 days.

In practice those released after serving half (or less) of their sentence don't usually need to do anything else in the rest of the time except behave themselves on the Island.  Or get off it, so we don't know if they have behaved themselves or not.

One of them said they had £1000 in the bank?

From IoM Today

“Stoica told police that he had £1,000 in a bank account and £200 in cash”

they were arrested on 22 July and in court 24 July. That’s 3 days in police custody as part days count as a full day.

A 21 day sentence amounts to 10 days inside. 28 to 14. At latest the 3 with 10 day sentences will be out 7am on 31/7, but I suspect 7am on Friday 28/7. The 28 days Thursday next week.