thommo2010 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 5 minutes ago, Roxanne said: Don’t you think him outside in a sleeping bag collecting money for his fare was a pretty good indication of him wanting to leave? And yes, as John has pointed out, my point was that the cost of just allowing him on would have been far less than due process. We’re paying for it either way Are common sense and discretion not allowed any more? He says he was collecting for his boat fare how do you know that's the truth? And no common sense and Discretion isn't allowed anymore as we all know someone films something posts it without any context and the court of public opinion makes their decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, John Wright said: Hamilton Jet was legal and regular and done under identical UK legislation. The only difference between UK and IoM was that it might take 6 months to get the VAT refund. IoM did it in one day. You can’t take away, or make, or accept a waiver of, a right of appeal in criminal proceedings, independent legislature or not. Yes, the VAT refund was made due to some complex machinations to achieve exactly that result. So it's not an independent legislature in that it slavishly follows the UK model. Then it's strange that Scotland could repeal the Vagrancy Act in 1982 but England and Wales only did it 40 years later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 6 minutes ago, P.K. said: Yes, the VAT refund was made due to some complex machinations to achieve exactly that result. So it's not an independent legislature in that it slavishly follows the UK model. Then it's strange that Scotland could repeal the Vagrancy Act in 1982 but England and Wales only did it 40 years later... You’re completely missing the point. 1. the end result was the same. No machinations. Just a speedier more efficient, personalised service. 2. on VAT the UK are in a single market & VAT and customs Union, hardly surprising the legislation is almost identical. 3. whilst the Vagrancy Act was repealed as applied in Scotland it was replaced (in Scotland) by legislation of similar effect. 40 years ago there wasn’t a Scottish Parliament. It was Westminster and the Scottish Grand Committee. Scottish legislation for Scottish problems, made in London. Different problems, priorities etc. 4. whilst the 2022 Act prospectively repeals the 1824 Act in England ( not sure about Wales - it’s a devolved matter, I think ), general agreement is the provisions won’t be in force for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 34 minutes ago, thommo2010 said: He says he was collecting for his boat fare how do you know that's the truth? That’s rather turning the rules of evidence and burden of proof on their head. It’d be up to the prosecution to prove. None of the reports I’ve seen have mentioned he was collecting or begging. Just sleeping in his sleeping bag at the sea terminal, and not having funds to get home. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinderella Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 2 hours ago, TheTeapot said: It isn't about stopping 'them' coming. It's about controlling you. Seriously. Go and have a strong cup of tea and a sit down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 37 minutes ago, John Wright said: You’re completely missing the point. 1. the end result was the same. No machinations. Just a speedier more efficient, personalised service. 2. on VAT the UK are in a single market & VAT and customs Union, hardly surprising the legislation is almost identical. 3. whilst the Vagrancy Act was repealed as applied in Scotland it was replaced (in Scotland) by legislation of similar effect. 40 years ago there wasn’t a Scottish Parliament. It was Westminster and the Scottish Grand Committee. Scottish legislation for Scottish problems, made in London. Different problems, priorities etc. 4. whilst the 2022 Act prospectively repeals the 1824 Act in England ( not sure about Wales - it’s a devolved matter, I think ), general agreement is the provisions won’t be in force for years. You're completely ducking the point. VAT may be similar as the island ripped the Treasury off for years, I recall that when they were rumbled a denizen of Tynwald got up on their hind legs and claimed on MR that the UK was acting "like a Robber Baron" - dear oh dear oh dear... Loved the "Scottish legislation for Scottish problems" because it makes you appear you are so institutionalised that the concept of "Manx legislation for Manx problems" is beyond your reach... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 21 minutes ago, P.K. said: You're completely ducking the point. VAT may be similar as the island ripped the Treasury off for years, I recall that when they were rumbled a denizen of Tynwald got up on their hind legs and claimed on MR that the UK was acting "like a Robber Baron" - dear oh dear oh dear... Loved the "Scottish legislation for Scottish problems" because it makes you appear you are so institutionalised that the concept of "Manx legislation for Manx problems" is beyond your reach... You’re missing the point. The agreement for dividing up the VAT receipts was freely entered into by UK and IoM. IoM didn’t pull the wool or rip off. It became dysfunctional as the economic data varied and got out of kilter, what was included in the GDP measure deviated from any expectations and was changed. UK was, and always will be, big brother and can dictate. Manx Legislation for Manx problems isn’t beyond my reach. What seems to be beyond your reach is that the Manx, English, Scottish problems are different, relate to different things, arose at different times. The legislation hasn’t been required to be used here for a very long time. The Scots legislative review was caused by the increasing numbers, then, of drunk and drug impaired people on the street and begging and threatening and being a low level social nuisance. The English problem is two fold, mainly, homelessness, mainly mental health, drink, drug driven, and human trafficking/modern day slavery/“professional” begging mainly originating from Romania and Albania, but also Bulgaria. Not sure there is a Manx problem, yet. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarndyce Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 1 hour ago, John Wright said: You’re completely missing the point. 18 minutes ago, P.K. said: You're completely ducking the point. 5 minutes ago, John Wright said: You’re missing the point. I’m sure there must have BEEN a point - I think we all might have lost it now… 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barlow Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 8 minutes ago, John Wright said: human trafficking/modern day slavery/“professional” begging mainly originating from Romania and Albania, but also Bulgaria The old "a big boy made me do it". These big boys never, ever, fucking ever seem to get caught (drug suppliers, human traffickers or whatever) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommo2010 Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 46 minutes ago, John Wright said: That’s rather turning the rules of evidence and burden of proof on their head. It’d be up to the prosecution to prove. None of the reports I’ve seen have mentioned he was collecting or begging. Just sleeping in his sleeping bag at the sea terminal, and not having funds to get home. Well seemed to be enough evidence to have him convicted at court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 7 minutes ago, Barlow said: The old "a big boy made me do it". These big boys never, ever, fucking ever seem to get caught (drug suppliers, human traffickers or whatever) No they don't. Even in the case of the Vietnamese death lorry, the Irish facilitators were caught but not the real big boys. That probably would have required international effort and cooperation. The Irish facilitators ran their 'business' from a post box. The post box was nailed to a tree down a country lane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 8 minutes ago, thommo2010 said: Well seemed to be enough evidence to have him convicted at court. Of not having visible means of support. Several different offences in the vagrancy act, other than begging or seeking alms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 39 minutes ago, John Wright said: You’re missing the point. The agreement for dividing up the VAT receipts was freely entered into by UK and IoM. IoM didn’t pull the wool or rip off. It became dysfunctional as the economic data varied and got out of kilter, what was included in the GDP measure deviated from any expectations and was changed. UK was, and always will be, big brother and can dictate. Manx Legislation for Manx problems isn’t beyond my reach. What seems to be beyond your reach is that the Manx, English, Scottish problems are different, relate to different things, arose at different times. The legislation hasn’t been required to be used here for a very long time. The Scots legislative review was caused by the increasing numbers, then, of drunk and drug impaired people on the street and begging and threatening and being a low level social nuisance. The English problem is two fold, mainly, homelessness, mainly mental health, drink, drug driven, and human trafficking/modern day slavery/“professional” begging mainly originating from Romania and Albania, but also Bulgaria. Not sure there is a Manx problem, yet. Dear me, how patronising... Of course the members of the union have different problems. I would say it's hard to miss the Scottish record on drug related deaths being the highest in Europe. Wouldn't you agree? In the past I've volunteered my time to work with homeless in the UK so I'm probably more aware than most of the issues involved. Frankly I'm not surprised they've started coming over here. We were having lunch in Liverpool 1, Brazilian cuisine I think it was, across the road a lady was begging with the scruffy sleeping bag and all the rest of the acoutrements minus scabrous dog. While we were there we witnessed what could best be described as a shift changeover. One out one in. Prime real estate I guess with established begging rights... Sure UK can dictate. But Tynwald isn't exactly laden with creating new legislation now is it? How much notice would the UK take if a "back on the next boat" policy was formulated for the crime of vagrancy which, let's face it, is not exactly up there in the criminality stakes. A major plus would be it would give the dreadful Suella Braverman something to aim for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, P.K. said: Dear me, how patronising.. You are. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 On 6/16/2023 at 9:08 PM, John Wright said: You really are a piece of shit P.K. If you don't like being on the receiving end then don't hand it out... 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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