Beggars in Strand Street

[woolley]

Why would they come here? So many hangups.

Expensive sea crossing.

Low footfall compared to a city you've come from to get here.

Stick out like a sore thumb compared to a city you've come from to get here.

Full of miserable old chuffs (thank you, HiVibes) who wouldn't give you the time of day, let alone money.

Slightly more traditional attitude from Plod and the courts than in the "enlightened" UK.

It simply doesn't make sense.

 

[Yibble]

Just now, woolley said:

Why would they come here? So many hangups.

Expensive sea crossing.

Low footfall compared to a city you've come from to get here.

Stick out like a sore thumb compared to a city you've come from to get here.

Full of miserable old chuffs (thank you, HiVibes) who wouldn't give you the time of day, let alone money.

Slightly more traditional attitude from Plod and the courts than in the "enlightened" UK.

It simply doesn't make sense.

 

Isn't that pretty much what the IoM once thought about drug dealers?

[woolley]

3 minutes ago, Yibble said:

Isn't that pretty much what the IoM once thought about drug dealers?

That's a bit different. They're selling a commodity with a value that's in demand, and more demand can be created. The street value on the Island is 3 times what it is across and that's the incentive.

Beggars aren't selling anything.

Edited July 24, 2023 by woolley

[Manxweegie]

6 minutes ago, woolley said:

Beggars aren't selling anything.

I don't know about that.. the ones who aren't begging certainly sell a different type of service. 

[Roger Mexico]

8 minutes ago, woolley said:

Why would they come here? So many hangups.

Expensive sea crossing.

Low footfall compared to a city you've come from to get here.

Stick out like a sore thumb compared to a city you've come from to get here.

Full of miserable old chuffs (thank you, HiVibes) who wouldn't give you the time of day, let alone money.

Slightly more traditional attitude from Plod and the courts than in the "enlightened" UK.

It simply doesn't make sense.

 

It's a bit odd, isn't it?  As I pointed out at the start of the topic it's not even the first time this has happened this month.  The police etc have a fixed routine for dealing with this sort of thing and presumably also pass on the info to across.  You'd think the word would have got round.

Maybe they saw the new Ferry Terminal and thought "These people must have money to burn".

[La Colombe]

Beggars who don't beg. Novel. 

[Gladys]

14 minutes ago, woolley said:

Why would they come here? So many hangups.

Expensive sea crossing.

Low footfall compared to a city you've come from to get here.

Stick out like a sore thumb compared to a city you've come from to get here.

Full of miserable old chuffs (thank you, HiVibes) who wouldn't give you the time of day, let alone money.

Slightly more traditional attitude from Plod and the courts than in the "enlightened" UK.

It simply doesn't make sense.

 

Poor market research, I suspect.  Probably think everyone is dripping in dosh, overlooking the sore thumb factor. 

[Yibble]

4 minutes ago, woolley said:

Beggars aren't selling anything.

No. The parallel is that, just like drug dealers, Roma beggars are part a commercial operation, run by organised criminal groups, in operations that rely on coercion, extortion and (sometimes) modern slavery. Drug dealers do at least fulfil consumer demand though, whereas Roma begging gangs are 100% extortion.

That said, I wasn't actually trying to equate drug dealing with Roma begging. I drew the parallel to point out that the "why would they come here?" idea was rather naive.

[woolley]

On 7/23/2023 at 7:24 AM, John Wright said:

They were arrested. And interviewed. There were requests from Police yesterday for translators and multiple additional advocates to back up the duty advocate.

Begging, on its own, under the Vagrancy Act, isn’t a serious offence. Summary only. Fine only. It wouldn’t result in deportation or cancellation of settled status.

Of course, you’re probably right that this isn’t straightforward begging, but industrialised exploitation of the women and modern day slavery. But proving that would be very difficult. The people on the street won’t tell because of fear of retribution here, or back in Romania.

They're here on the street begging, so by definition they are here with no means of support and they aren't entitled to benefits. Just put them straight on the next boat back and report them to the police over there. If the UK wants to put up with these activities by aliens on its streets that's up to the UK and to the the detriment of the legitimate UK population.

[woolley]

2 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

It's a bit odd, isn't it?  As I pointed out at the start of the topic it's not even the first time this has happened this month.  The police etc have a fixed routine for dealing with this sort of thing and presumably also pass on the info to across.  You'd think the word would have got round.

Maybe they saw the new Ferry Terminal and thought "These people must have money to burn".

If they saw Heysham they might send us some money instead.

[La Colombe]

I'd like more of this in Strand St please. 

 

 

[woolley]

2 minutes ago, Yibble said:

No. The parallel is that, just like drug dealers, Roma beggars are part a commercial operation, run by organised criminal groups, in operations that rely on coercion, extortion and (sometimes) modern slavery. Drug dealers do at least fulfil consumer demand though, whereas Roma begging gangs are 100% extortion.

That said, I wasn't actually trying to equate drug dealing with Roma begging. I drew the parallel to point out that the "why would they come here?" idea was rather naive.

I don't think so. Drug dealing has a viable market here (demonstrably), and at a premium to the UK price, but I don't see how begging does, for all the reasons I listed. It's more difficult to do for a lower return. Makes no sense.

[TheTeapot]

The leaders probably read some IOM gov bullshit about us being the 6th richest country in the world where everyone is getting paid £1000s per week and fancied a bit.

[John Wright]

29 minutes ago, woolley said:

They're here on the street begging, so by definition they are here with no means of support and they aren't entitled to benefits

Begging doesn’t mean they have no means of support. There’s always enough money to pay the fine and travel back, even if they have the money they are found with confiscated as proceeds of crime. What has benefits got to do with this?

29 minutes ago, woolley said:

Just put them straight on the next boat back and report them to the police over there.

The police, unsurprisingly, don’t have the power to do that. And why should the steam packet carry them for free or the tax payer pay.

The method used is arrest, question, try and evince evidence of coercion, modern day slavery, etc. The “beggars” won’t. They are then offered a caution for begging if they agree to fund their own travel off Island. 

Exclusion orders don’t work. You’ve got to be convicted and the exclusion order made by a court. And, after 25 years, the courts and police have realised an exclusion order cannot be enforced until the 28 day appeal period has expired. Waivers of right of appeal don’t work. There’s case law ( dating back to the birching era ).

29 minutes ago, woolley said:

If the UK wants to put up with these activities by aliens on its streets that's up to the UK and to the the detriment of the legitimate UK population.

They may well have settled status. In which case an odd begging or vagrancy conviction won’t hit the threshold for expulsion. Although I’m sure that most are in Uk on 180 days visa free visit rights.

You're right, it’s not a good choice to come here. But until a few have done and reported back about their reception a trickle will still come. Suspect it’s become too hot for them wherever they were before and they’re on a low profile.

[woolley]

6 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Begging doesn’t mean they have no means of support. There’s always enough money to pay the fine and travel back, even if they have the money they are found with confiscated as proceeds of crime. What has benefits got to do with this?

If they were entitled to benefits they would have means of support. The fact that they are begging implies they are penniless. Or at least that's what they would have us believe.

The police, unsurprisingly, don’t have the power to do that. And why should the steam packet carry them for free or the tax payer pay. The method used is arrest, question, try and evince evidence of coercion, modern day slavery, etc. The “beggars” won’t. They are then offered a caution for begging if they agree to fund their own travel off Island.

Why should the taxpayer pay for that process? Is it cheaper than putting them straight back on the boat? I very much doubt it. If the police don't have the power, change the law. That's why we have Tynwald.

Exclusion orders don’t work. You’ve got to be convicted and the exclusion order made by a court. And, after 25 years, the courts and police have realised an exclusion order cannot be enforced until the 28 day appeal period has expired. Waivers of right of appeal don’t work. There’s case law ( dating back to the birching era ).

They'd soon get fed up of to-ing and fro-ing across the Irish Sea.

They may well have settled status. In which case an odd begging or vagrancy conviction won’t hit the threshold for expulsion. Although I’m sure that most are in Uk on 180 days visa free visit rights.

Then it's time the UK got tough on people who clearly thumb their nose and take advantage of a soft regime for their own criminal ends.