Heritage Railways Chopped?

[TheTeapot]

1 minute ago, 0bserver said:

You could get the bus for much less. 

Why do you need to have a subsidised steam train ride? 

You haven't answered the question. It's you who thinks everyone should have to pay more to use it, so what are you saying? Adult and child £20? £30? I know I could get the bus, I regularly do, and because it would cost £13.50 on the train I probably will, so the railways will get nothing. Maybe that's what you want? Price everyone off them to shut them down? It's nice to get the train, kids like it, I like it.

[Albert Tatlock]

2 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

You haven't answered the question. It's you who thinks everyone should have to pay more to use it, so what are you saying? Adult and child £20? £30? I know I could get the bus, I regularly do, and because it would cost £13.50 on the train I probably will, so the railways will get nothing. Maybe that's what you want? Price everyone off them to shut them down? It's nice to get the train, kids like it, I like it.

This is the debate we need to have...as a nation...what is heritage? e.g. you wouldn't pay that to see 'The Peggy' would you?

...we can't afford all heritage.

 

[TheTeapot]

2 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

This is the debate we need to have...as a nation...what is heritage? e.g. you wouldn't pay that to see 'The Peggy' would you?

...we can't afford all heritage.

 

We can't all afford to go to the heritage! £13 quid to go up the Laxey Wheel the other week - kids 'free'! I don't think I've got my head around this 'new normal' inflation bullshit yet.

[code99]

‘National heritage’ generally implies a set of quintessential traditions including a unique language and culture/ legacy like the Manx language or Roman ruins or Vikings ships or Flamenco guitar-playing, etc, etc. Getting rid of ‘national heritage’ would be akin to selling the inherited family silver to pay the bills, but what is the Isle of Man’s National Heritage and what is it worth? The Manx National Heritage is the Islands’ uniqueness and historical identity. There is a huge spectrum of perspectives and attitudes as to how residents feel about the prioritising the past verses the present. Some residents who own restaurants and cafes would be delighted by dozens of stag and hens’ dos arriving on our shores every weekend, while other residents would be strongly opposed. Currently we can’t even agree on MF among a handful of posters whether the IOM tourism is an advantage or a drain on the Island’s public finances.

Many ‘old world’ European cities (from Vienna to Krakow) still have quaint horse driven coaches as a part of their 'heritage' and their tourist industries. Steam trains and steam ships were major forms of public transport across the industrialised world until they were superseded by oil and gas driven engines. Today there are very few examples of that world-conquering ‘Victorian ingenuity’ but as much as 'heritage' is important, so too are Manx Care patients who are languishing in waiting lists to see ENT specialists, gastroenterologists, orthopaedic surgeons; young families who are trying to get on a housing ladder, etc, etc. On the one hand, letting go of ‘vintage’ stuff without replacing it with something special would reduce the Island to being just another bland place lacking character and charm.

My point is that like with many things on the Island, most politicians only have vague ideas and no articulated plans about how to choose the best options to secure the Island’s future. As a broader community the residents do not have a homogenous vision of what our future should be. Of course, decision making would have been much easier if public finances were in much better shape with enough money to fund and subsidise every tantalising dream… What I find infuriating is that now we are in a situation where potentially the Island will have to start making choices between Manx National Heritage and Manx Care/ NHS.

[0bserver]

24 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

You haven't answered the question. It's you who thinks everyone should have to pay more to use it, so what are you saying? Adult and child £20? £30? I know I could get the bus, I regularly do, and because it would cost £13.50 on the train I probably will, so the railways will get nothing. Maybe that's what you want? Price everyone off them to shut them down? It's nice to get the train, kids like it, I like it.

It should cost whatever the break even point is. 

The issue is that these things aren't a form of public transport. They're a historic luxury... People love a Chinese takeout or a chippy, but they don't eat one every night because they're expensive... same logic should apply here. Make it an annual treat. Maybe every couple of years. 

Yes, numbers will decline and that means they can run fewer trains at a smaller cost and then the thing becomes sustainable in the longer term. 

At the moment all DOI care about is the number of bums on seats without a care for the actual losses incurred. That's an extremely irresponsible way to operate in the current financial climate where we're spending 10% of reserves annually just to keep the lights on. 

 

What do you propose as a realistic alternative?

[0bserver]

12 minutes ago, code99 said:

 

Many ‘old world’ European cities (from Vienna to Krakow) still have quaint horse driven coaches as a part of their 'heritage' and their tourist industries.

Most of which are operated by private sector tourist businesses. Not government quangos with a massive taxpayer subsidy. I can guarantee the guy doing horse and cart rides around Krakow will be doing it because he makes decent money from it. 

14 minutes ago, code99 said:

What I find infuriating is that now we are in a situation where potentially the Island will have to start making choices between Manx National Heritage and Manx Care/ NHS

Sadly we already are making those choices. Patients are on occasion waiting 6 hours to be seen at Nobles... worryingly we're still in summer, god knows what that's going to be like when winter comes. We're told there's no money to pay nurses, there's no money to build a new old peoples home...

Yet we're still actively considering splurging £3m+ on a glass shed for an old rowing boat. 

The island needs to stop pretending that nothing has changed since the 1990's when there was bucket loads of cash swilling about in the public purse. 

Some people are sadly in denial. 

[TheTeapot]

8 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

 

The issue is that these things aren't a form of public transport.

I'm a member of the public planning on using it as a form of transport.

[0bserver]

Just now, TheTeapot said:

I'm a member of the public planning on using it as a form of transport.

They're not an efficient or financially sustainable form of public transport.

To be fair I could ride a wheelbarrow into town.. doesn't make it a true form of public transport. 

[WTF]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

What is your justification? 

 

Seems a somewhat arbitrary decision.  

Have you been to the House of Mannanan recently?  It needs significant investment. 

its getting to the stage where the hundreds of years old exhibits are in better condition than the buildings they are housed in.

[Roger Mexico]

36 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

We can't all afford to go to the heritage! £13 quid to go up the Laxey Wheel the other week - kids 'free'! I don't think I've got my head around this 'new normal' inflation bullshit yet.

Pro tip:  Join the Friends of MNH for £40 a year and you'll more or less have covered it in three of such visits.  You can actually get a year's season for £35, but if you're going off-Island at all in the year, the FMNH gives you free entry to National Trust and English Heritage places (and various equivalents).

[0bserver]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

What is your justification? 

 

Seems a somewhat arbitrary decision.  

Have you been to the House of Mannanan recently?  It needs significant investment. 

The three I would keep at least have a chance at being able to earn some income. 

Laxey Wheel is a money pit. Millions after millions have been spent on it in recent years. It's like the Forth Bridge. It will need redoing again in a few years. 

The Grove is naff and always has been. Cregneash is just some old cottages. The best thing for Peel Castle would be managed decline (government is good at that after all, it's what they're doing to all our essential services). Open it up as a free park for people to enjoy St. Patrick's Isle.

[TheTeapot]

1 minute ago, Roger Mexico said:

Pro tip:  Join the Friends of MNH for £40 a year and you'll more or less have covered it in three of such visits.  You can actually get a year's season for £35, but if you're going off-Island at all in the year, the FMNH gives you free entry to National Trust and English Heritage places (and various equivalents).

I had heard that MNH were dropping the NT/EH thing, cos it was reciprocal for members of those and they reckoned they were losing out. Is that not true then?

[Roger Mexico]

43 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

I had heard that MNH were dropping the NT/EH thing, cos it was reciprocal for members of those and they reckoned they were losing out. Is that not true then?

Not according to that link.  They'd be daft if they did - not least because it's the sort of thing that would attract NT etc members to come to the Island.  And there's a lot of NT members, so it's good publicity.  I suspect it would also mean that FMNH would lose a lot of their membership as well and so most of MNH's income from that would go, which funds a lot of acquisitions etc.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, 0bserver said:

You could get the bus for much less. 

Why do you need to have a subsidised steam train ride? 

You are still not recognising the contribution made by the tourists to the wider economy in sectors other than the heritage attractions - assessed at £11m in the earlier review. You are only looking at the bare cost and revenue of the attractions. It's a simplistic view of a complex situation.

The subsidies are small beer in relation to a billion pound budget. I'd much rather trim some needless management posts in the central government bureaucracy. We never seem to get a review of that. It just gets bigger.

[Kopek]

I suspect that the tourists that we get would come anyway, if they are coming for the Trams, they would be overloaded? Not seen it yet!