EV Island Issues

[loaf]

27 minutes ago, Manxman1234 said:

What % is that for the Isle of Man, given this is an Isle of Man page, and not a UK page?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_to_England_Interconnector

The island is a consumer of the UK National Grid.

But this is rather a distraction from the original point: The cartoon is trying to suggest that centralised generation of energy is as dirty and polluting as running an ICE engine, to make ICE car owners feel better, presumably. Some of them really love that cartoon.

But it's a faulty premise at best.

To remove the concept from people's beloved vehicles for a moment, there are numerous reasons why we don't personally all run diesel electricity generators in our back yards rather than rely on centralised generation. Aside from efficiencies of generating at scale, there are valid issues of noise, smell, smoke and localised pollution, all similarly valid for vehicles too.

Add to that the fact that it's not actually a monolithic, smoke-pumping, fossil fuel burning power station generating the electricity (as implied by the cartoon), but facts and figures available in real time show that renewables and non fossil-fuels are already doing most of the heavy lifting - and that's continuously improving.

So the point (and the reason for my original reply) is that the cartoon is anything but 'so true'.

[doc.fixit]

Except for the pollution created in manufacturing the Green energy producing equipment plus the transport, erection and obtaining the raw materials in the first place.

Oh yes, maintenance, spare parts and renewal when life expired.

[loaf]

7 minutes ago, doc.fixit said:

Except for the pollution created in manufacturing the Green energy producing equipment plus the transport, erection and obtaining the raw materials in the first place.

Oh yes, maintenance, spare parts and renewal when life expired.

True. Comparative figures are harder to come by.

Edit: Although I will say that there are fewer moving parts involved in all electric vehicles. Less to go wrong, less to manufacture, less to dispose of. Batteries apparently have a recycleable life after being used in vehicles, but I'm yet to be convinced of that being viable.

Edited October 19, 2023 by loaf

[Zarley]

2 hours ago, Annoymouse said:

 I wouldn’t be able to run the likes of a washing machine at night without annoying the neighbours.

Really? You must have... 

A) an extremely loud washing machine, or

B) extremely thin party walls, or

C) neighbours with extremely good hearing, and cantankerous with it. 

I mean, I can put my washer on and provided I shut the kitchen door, you can't really hear it in the rest of the house. I live in an ordinary house, not one with massively thick stone walls or whatever. Maybe I'm just more hard of hearing than I think. 😂

[lethargy]

You're not thinking vertically.

[A fool and his money.....]

1 hour ago, loaf said:

True. Comparative figures are harder to come by.

Edit: Although I will say that there are fewer moving parts involved in all electric vehicles. Less to go wrong, less to manufacture, less to dispose of. Batteries apparently have a recycleable life after being used in vehicles, but I'm yet to be convinced of that being viable.

Although frequency of manufacture is also a consideration. I drive a 20 year old car - it has only been manufactured once in the last 20 years. Yet if I were well heeled enough to have bought a brand new EV every years for the past ten years then I would have received considerable subsidies in fuel and road tax for doing so. As it is, I have received none.

I have no problem with EV's , I think they are a good idea, especially on the island. What I do have a problem with is environmental incentives being restricted to those who can afford them. We all have a carbon footprint, we could all be greener. Giving the mother of all subsidies to a (very) few of us doesn't seem to me a very efficient way of persuading all of us to be greener.

[Zarley]

30 minutes ago, lethargy said:

You're not thinking vertically.

Unless the room where your washer lives is directly over another flat's bedroom, I think you'd still be hard pressed for it to bother someone in the middle of the night. But again, maybe my hearing isn't as good as I think it is. 

On the other hand, the last time I lived in a flat where someone lived on the floor above, I never once heard his washer. That was many years ago when my ears were definitely ace. It was also an old building, originally a one-family home carved up into three flats so it's not like it was purpose built with between-floor sound-proofing. 

[Banker]

3 hours ago, Dave Hedgehog said:

I've done a bit of motorway driving in mine. It has a 300 mile range so no major issues encountered. You have to a bit more journey planning and hope the rapid chargers are working but all good so far.....

That’s why I’m considering a self charging hybrid so no worries over charging it 

[loaf]

34 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Although frequency of manufacture is also a consideration. I drive a 20 year old car - it has only been manufactured once in the last 20 years. Yet if I were well heeled enough to have bought a brand new EV every years for the past ten years then I would have received considerable subsidies in fuel and road tax for doing so. As it is, I have received none.

I have no problem with EV's , I think they are a good idea, especially on the island. What I do have a problem with is environmental incentives being restricted to those who can afford them. We all have a carbon footprint, we could all be greener. Giving the mother of all subsidies to a (very) few of us doesn't seem to me a very efficient way of persuading all of us to be greener.

I agree, but I think there is a wider context. Let's say you proved conclusively that EVs had no better net environmental impact as an ICE vehicle right now, the next generation EVs will be an improvement on battery efficiency, range, materials etc, and it continues. Meanwhile the "greenness" of the power source is also improving as fossil fuel reliance diminishes. It's a works in progress, and progress is being made.

Meanwhile, people can get all sentimental about their petroleum engines, but at some point petroleum will become so rare and expensive that the average Joe will not be able to run an ICE engine. So hopefully by that time battery technology, generation technology and so on will be efficient, suitable and accessible for EVs to take over.

Edited October 19, 2023 by loaf

[WTF]

3 hours ago, Dave Hedgehog said:

. Not really massively different to long journeys with an ICE car though you don't really let the tank empty before topping up.

it is different,  my main vehicle ( diesel ) can do 600 miles on a tank of fuel , i can pretty much guarantee with 100 miles left in the tank i can find a fuel supply , once found i can add 500 miles to the range i have in 5 minutes.   on the very very rare chance that i actually run out of fuel altogether  i can phone the AA/RAC ( who ever i'm with ) and a smiling person will turn up with a gallon or 2 of fuel, rub my nose in it ( quite deservedly )  and get my stupid embarrassed self  going again.  if you run out of battery in your EV i'm not sure if the AA/RAC turn up with a generator and sit there and charge you up for  a few hours.

[Cambon]

It is actually quite difficult to get like for like new car prices of comparable cars. However, Fiat do a “Red” edition of the 500 in both EV end petrol (mild hybrid). In all three vehicles, the trim level is basically the same, so a reasonably good test.

Standard EV version.  0-60. 9.5. Top speed. 84.   Range. 120. Price £28195.
Long range version.    0-60. 9.0. Top speed. 93.   Range. 190. Price £31195.

Mild hybrid version.   0-60. 13.8. Top speed. 104. Range. 350. Price £17790.

So the basic EV version is well over 10K more expensive than the petrol/mild hybrid. To put it another way, around 80,000 miles worth of petrol. These are list prices and deals are available. I put the speeds more out of interest than anything. Personally, I would not be happy on a motorway in a car that is virtually flat out all the time. Either way, an interesting comparison. An interesting point, both EVs will charge overnight to 100% from a 13 amp plug, according to the specs. So no real need for a fast charger. 

[mad_manx]

6 minutes ago, Cambon said:

It is actually quite difficult to get like for like new car prices of comparable cars. However, Fiat do a “Red” edition of the 500 in both EV end petrol (mild hybrid). In all three vehicles, the trim level is basically the same, so a reasonably good test.

Standard EV version.  0-60. 9.5. Top speed. 84.   Range. 120. Price £28195.
Long range version.    0-60. 9.0. Top speed. 93.   Range. 190. Price £31195.

Mild hybrid version.   0-60. 13.8. Top speed. 104. Range. 350. Price £17790.

So the basic EV version is well over 10K more expensive than the petrol/mild hybrid. To put it another way, around 80,000 miles worth of petrol. These are list prices and deals are available. I put the speeds more out of interest than anything. Personally, I would not be happy on a motorway in a car that is virtually flat out all the time. Either way, an interesting comparison. An interesting point, both EVs will charge overnight to 100% from a 13 amp plug, according to the specs. So no real need for a fast charger. 

I sometimes charge from a  standard household 13 amp  plug.  Afaik all EV's can be charged this way ( its often called a granny charger ) . Only issue is that it's slow ..

I get around 5 miles of range per hour of charging  vs around 30 miles range per hour from a dedicated 7kw charging  point .

For use on island even the standard plug will work for most people.. 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by mad_manx

[Cambon]

13 minutes ago, loaf said:

I agree, but I think there is a wider context. Let's say you proved conclusively that EVs had no better net environmental impact as an ICE vehicle right now, the next generation EVs will be an improvement on battery efficiency, range, materials etc, and it continues. Meanwhile the "greenness" of the power source is also improving as fossil fuel reliance diminishes. It's a works in progress, and progress is being made.

Meanwhile, people can get all sentimental about their petroleum engines, but at some point petroleum will become so rare and expensive that the average Joe will not be able to run an ICE engine. So hopefully by that time battery technology, generation technology and so on will be efficient, suitable and accessible for EVs to take over.

This is a joke, right? You do realise that worldwide use of fossil fuels is actually on the increase, and even Germany and the UK are starting to burn coal to produce electricity because of the demand? You do realise that China is opening new fossil fuel power stations at an unprecedented rate? You do realise that in the majority of the world IC vehicles will still be produced and sold long after the EU/UK pipe dream of banning them has passed? It is all about money. 

[John Wright]

12 minutes ago, Cambon said:

Germany and the UK are starting to burn coal to produce electricity because of the demand?

The UK has only one coal fire powered electric plant. Ratcliffe on Soare. And it is scheduled to close down before September 2024.

[loaf]

15 minutes ago, Cambon said:

This is a joke, right? You do realise that worldwide use of fossil fuels is actually on the increase, and even Germany and the UK are starting to burn coal to produce electricity because of the demand? You do realise that China is opening new fossil fuel power stations at an unprecedented rate? You do realise that in the majority of the world IC vehicles will still be produced and sold long after the EU/UK pipe dream of banning them has passed? It is all about money. 

I would agree that it is very much about the money, in the sense that oil companies have lots of it to spend on disinformation about alternatives to petroleum. Aside from that, I'm not sure what you are objecting to.

You can either believe that fossil fuels are a finite resource that is going to run out of at some point, or you don't. Your choice, but I think a clue is that we did stop making dinosaurs a while ago now.