The Bastard Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 minute ago, Banker said: Well according to Amadeus EV car owners subsidize all infrastructure which is bollocks! And all car owners should pay same car tax depending on weight Anyone who pays any form of tax subsidises the infrastructure. Even the people who don't drive and have never driven. I'm in favour of charging ICEs more for the same reason we tax cigarettes more than carrots. ICEs generate cancer-causing particulate pollution in urban areas. They pollute with toxic Carbon Monoxide and Nitrogen Oxides. EVs are not pollution-free to construct, but over the lifetime of the vehicle, independent studies show they contribute considerably less Carbon Dioxide, which fuels climate change. Massive profits from ICE fuels prop up toxic regimes in Russia and the middle east that use those profits to erode human rights and to fund conflict and human exploitation. ICE fuel prices vary enormously all the time with political instability, putting economic pressure on Manx families when there's no other option. EVs at least can be driven from sustainable sources that the island is investing in. Even if you don't consider the environmental benefits of not burning a fossil fuel that's been shipped halfway around the world, local production of electricity means stable pricing, less market forces, and less money going to toxic dictatorships. It doesn't have to be black-and-white though. If you have an excess of sustainable energy, like some of the Scottish islands do, you can generate cheap sustainable fuel - like hydrogen - with fairly minimal effort. That lets you run ICEs, but with less cancer, murder, price-scalping and environment destruction. That's not a bad thing. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Jason is on the case of EV fires ! https://www.three.fm/news/isle-of-man-news/how-would-steam-packet-ferries-cope-with-ev-fires/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 16 hours ago, The Bastard said: Anyone who pays any form of tax subsidises the infrastructure. Even the people who don't drive and have never driven. I'm in favour of charging ICEs more for the same reason we tax cigarettes more than carrots. ICEs generate cancer-causing particulate pollution in urban areas. They pollute with toxic Carbon Monoxide and Nitrogen Oxides. EVs are not pollution-free to construct, but over the lifetime of the vehicle, independent studies show they contribute considerably less Carbon Dioxide, which fuels climate change. Massive profits from ICE fuels prop up toxic regimes in Russia and the middle east that use those profits to erode human rights and to fund conflict and human exploitation. ICE fuel prices vary enormously all the time with political instability, putting economic pressure on Manx families when there's no other option. EVs at least can be driven from sustainable sources that the island is investing in. Even if you don't consider the environmental benefits of not burning a fossil fuel that's been shipped halfway around the world, local production of electricity means stable pricing, less market forces, and less money going to toxic dictatorships. It doesn't have to be black-and-white though. If you have an excess of sustainable energy, like some of the Scottish islands do, you can generate cheap sustainable fuel - like hydrogen - with fairly minimal effort. That lets you run ICEs, but with less cancer, murder, price-scalping and environment destruction. That's not a bad thing. The biggest profiteers of road fuel is the government. 52.95P of every litre (plus vat) is the additional tax for using IC vehicles. So you can stuff your extra road tax on IC. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manxman1234 Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 51 minutes ago, Cambon said: The biggest profiteers of road fuel is the government. 52.95P of every litre (plus vat) is the additional tax for using IC vehicles. So you can stuff your extra road tax on IC. And will be looking to replace that with additional taxes on EV once enough people have made the switch driving will end up for the limited few that can afford the higher costs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A fool and his money..... Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 17 hours ago, The Bastard said: Anyone who pays any form of tax subsidises the infrastructure. Even the people who don't drive and have never driven. I'm in favour of charging ICEs more for the same reason we tax cigarettes more than carrots. ICEs generate cancer-causing particulate pollution in urban areas. They pollute with toxic Carbon Monoxide and Nitrogen Oxides. EVs are not pollution-free to construct, but over the lifetime of the vehicle, independent studies show they contribute considerably less Carbon Dioxide, which fuels climate change. Massive profits from ICE fuels prop up toxic regimes in Russia and the middle east that use those profits to erode human rights and to fund conflict and human exploitation. ICE fuel prices vary enormously all the time with political instability, putting economic pressure on Manx families when there's no other option. EVs at least can be driven from sustainable sources that the island is investing in. Even if you don't consider the environmental benefits of not burning a fossil fuel that's been shipped halfway around the world, local production of electricity means stable pricing, less market forces, and less money going to toxic dictatorships. It doesn't have to be black-and-white though. If you have an excess of sustainable energy, like some of the Scottish islands do, you can generate cheap sustainable fuel - like hydrogen - with fairly minimal effort. That lets you run ICEs, but with less cancer, murder, price-scalping and environment destruction. That's not a bad thing. There aren't enough minerals in the world to replace ICE vehicles with EVs as things stand. I agree with some of your points but I think the carrots and cigarettes analogy is a poor one. Most, if not everyone on the island could afford a bunch of carrots. Very, very few people could afford an EV. If we want to reduce climate change and really make a difference, we need to make the incentives open to everyone - we all have a carbon footprint. Giving huge subsidies to a very few people is not equitable, it's not efficient and it demonstrably isn't working. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cueey Lewis And The News Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) 19 hours ago, The Bastard said: Massive profits from ICE fuels prop up toxic regimes in Russia and the middle east that use those profits to erode human rights and to fund conflict and human exploitation. China the worlds most toxic human rights hating regime controls 70% of global lithium production. Your argument literally makes no sense at all. Edited October 20, 2023 by Cueey Lewis And The News 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 3 hours ago, Cueey Lewis And The News said: China the worlds most toxic human rights hating regime controls 70% of global lithium production. Your argument literally makes no sense at all. Utter shite from you as usual. China only controls 14% of global lithium production. More than 70% comes from Australia and Chile. Source : Visualizing the world's largest Lithium producers China also isn't even in the top 5 of the world's largest Lithium reserves. Source : Largest Lithium Reserves 6 hours ago, Manxman1234 said: driving will end up for the limited few that can afford the higher costs It already is. According to a survey from CompareTheMarket cited in Motor1.com, a quarter of British motorists in their survey had struggled to meet the costs of driving in the past month. Source : Motor1 7 hours ago, Cambon said: The biggest profiteers of road fuel is the government. 52.95P of every litre (plus vat) is the additional tax for using IC vehicles. So you can stuff your extra road tax on IC. Road Tax isn't a thing, but I'm not suggesting extra VED on ICEs. I'm suggesting it makes sense for less VED for EVs. The two aren't the same thing. Governments don't actually make profits anyway - apart from transfers into reserves, they funnel collected taxes back into the community they represent. 6 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said: There aren't enough minerals in the world to replace ICE vehicles with EVs as things stand. Source : Popular Mechanics 6 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said: Most, if not everyone on the island could afford a bunch of carrots. Very, very few people could afford an EV. CarWow reports that a Nissan Leaf starts at £24,401 if paying cash. A comparable 2023 Ford Focus ICE has an RRP starting at £29,650 according to Auto Trader. At the bottom end, a Citroen Ami, a cheap urban runabout with plastic body panels, starts at £7,695 according to CarWow. Electric motorcycles start for a couple of thousand new. E-scooters are £300. They won't carry a sofa to the tip, but for replacing an ICE car commute, they do the same job at a fraction of the cost. 6 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said: If we want to reduce climate change and really make a difference, we need to make the incentives open to everyone - we all have a carbon footprint. Giving huge subsidies to a very few people is not equitable, it's not efficient and it demonstrably isn't working. We're already subsidising ICE drivers. Infrastructure projects, health spend and maintaining the infrastructure and regulation around worldwide fuel shipping and delivery costs far in excess of the VED. The argument isn't exclusively about climate change. Even if you completely ignore the environmental issue, it still makes sense to run transport from local energy provision. It's cheaper, doesn't funnel money to hostile regimes with poor human rights records, and doesn't vary in cost staggeringly when regional wars or transport logistics crop up in the oil-producing areas. 1 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 6 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said: I agree with some of your points but I think the carrots and cigarettes analogy is a poor one. And how many people can afford to smoke cigarettes at £ 10 a packet, most of which is tax? Disgraceful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cueey Lewis And The News Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, The Bastard said: Utter shite from you as usual. China only controls 14% of global lithium production. More than 70% comes from Australia and Chile. Source : Visualizing the world's largest Lithium producers China also isn't even in the top 5 of the world's largest Lithium reserves. Shite from you to be honest. China controls 70% of global lithium production it doesn’t matter specifically where it’s mined. They control the extraction and supply chain. It’s the country making the most out of the whole thing. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/china-lithium-mining-production China’s share of the market for lithium-ion batteries could be as high as 80 percent, according to estimates from BloombergNEF. Six of the 10 biggest EV battery producers are based in China—one of them, CATL, makes three out of every ten EV batteries globally. That dominance extends through the supply chain. Chinese companies have signed preferential deals with lithium-rich nations and benefited from huge government investment in the complex steps between mining and manufacturing. That’s made the rest of the world nervous, and the United States and Europe are now scrambling to wean themselves off Chinese lithium before it’s too late. Edited October 20, 2023 by Cueey Lewis And The News Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Cueey Lewis And The News said: Shite from you to be honest. China controls 70% of global lithium production it doesn’t matter specifically where it’s mined. They control the extraction and supply chain. It’s the country making the most out of the whole thing. You made a claim about lithium production which was easily disproved, so you're trying unsuccessfully to redirect the argument. The usual shite, with the usual insults. Most vehicle parts are made in China, ICE and EV. It doesn't invalidate the statement that much of the world's oil production rests in countries run by dictatorships with questionable records on human rights, and that local energy production doesn't involve funding that. That's a fact, not an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cueey Lewis And The News Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 5 hours ago, The Bastard said: You made a claim about lithium production which was easily disproved, so you're trying unsuccessfully to redirect the argument. The usual shite, with the usual insults. Insults? You used the word shite first whilst talking it. Totally out of your depth as usual. You should learn to debate like a grown up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 34 minutes ago, Cueey Lewis And The News said: Insults? You used the word shite first whilst talking it. Totally out of your depth as usual. You should learn to debate like a grown up. Oh, the irony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cueey Lewis And The News Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) Ah, the grown-up debate we were waiting for. Edited October 21, 2023 by The Bastard 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emesde Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 It seems that insurance companies are having difficulty in pricing underwriting for EV insurance. Electric cars risk becoming uninsurable - The Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/net-zero/electric-cars-risk-becoming-uninsurable/ 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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