EV Island Issues

[Amadeus]

12 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

It's your preference, but IMHO petrol engines are in no sense clean, green, modern or efficient though. They generate crude, carcinogenic pollutants (like Benzene) in the street, rather than at the source of generation, where large-scale filtration can take place.

It's easy to use the argument that EVs generate pollution from generation, but you shouldn't forget that the petrol that the "clean, modern, efficient" engines use has been tanker-schlepped half-way across the planet from questionable regimes, processed several times at energy-intensive refineries, with all the associated by-products and unwanted pollutants that are churned out on the way. Petrol Vehicles don't just disappear in a puff of unicorn dust at the end of their lifetimes. 

The money funnelled into those questionable regimes leads to conflict and human rights abuses on a massive scale, and effectively puts the IOM at the mercy of international conflicts - watch the price of petrol over the next few weeks. 

EVs at least can use green energy from local sources, which petrol vehicles will never be able to do, though hydrogen vehicles can. The "green" piece has environmental benefits, but the "local" piece means we're not as vulnerable to international conflict and price-gouging, so the choice to use an EV doesn't have to be made on purely environmental grounds. In the event of serious international conflict, EVs may actually be the only vehicles on the road, along with a load of disgruntled ex-drivers on bicycles.

You're right, EVs are still a developing technology, much like ICEs have been since their inception, and that's a major obstacle at the moment. The Model T wasn't a perfect vehicle, but enlightened people of the time recognised its potential, whilst the luddites of the time posted pre-memes showing Model T's being towed by horses. There's still a lot of development to be done, battery technology is the least mature aspect, but the potential and benefits are obvious.

Many good points there. Battery tech is still developing, see sodium ion batteries, solar panels that can be shaped and painted just like normal body panels, etc. EVs work really well in places like the IOM. Everything is short distance which is crap for ICE engines. Wears them out faster, emissions controls don’t work properly, etc. 

[The Phantom]

15 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

The money funnelled into those questionable regimes leads to conflict and human rights abuses on a massive scale, and effectively puts the IOM at the mercy of international conflicts - watch the price of petrol over the next few weeks. 

EVs at least can use green energy from local sources, which petrol vehicles will never be able to do, though hydrogen vehicles can. The "green" piece has environmental benefits, but the "local" piece means we're not as vulnerable to international conflict and price-gouging, so the choice to use an EV doesn't have to be made on purely environmental grounds. In the event of serious international conflict, EVs may actually be the only vehicles on the road, along with a load of disgruntled ex-drivers on bicycles.

No green energy from local sources here and judging by the windmill shenanigans I doubt there will be anytime soon.  The best bet would be 'buying green energy' from the UK via the interconnector.  I'm not entirely sure how viable or possible that will be. Go Biosphere! 

The minerals required for the batteries are things like Lithium, Cobalt etc.  At the moment, most of this is found in 'shithole countries' and mined in massively polluting open cast mines with huge levels of human rights abuses, child labour etc. 

[HiVibes]

2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

But then Lawrie would ban any traffic from going there because .....reasons.

And that would be a bad thing?

[The Bastard]

11 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

No green energy from local sources here and judging by the windmill shenanigans I doubt there will be anytime soon.  The best bet would be 'buying green energy' from the UK via the interconnector.  I'm not entirely sure how viable or possible that will be. Go Biosphere! 

The minerals required for the batteries are things like Lithium, Cobalt etc.  At the moment, most of this is found in 'shithole countries' and mined in massively polluting open cast mines with huge levels of human rights abuses, child labour etc. 

I'm imagining that being read in the voice of "Droopy"

There's not much green energy here yet, but we're at the early stages, and there are always obstacles to be overcome, just like when the roads weren't fit for motorised vehicles, there were no petrol stations, no garages, and no electricity. Complex infrastructure changes take time and effort, it's a journey. 

"Unethical" Lithium sourcing keeps coming up in this thread.  77% of Lithium production comes from Australia and Chile, Australia alone responsible for 46%. New sources of Lithium are being investigated. 

Cobalt is more problematic though - it's used in a small way as a catalyst in petrol refining, but you're right, EVs use a lot more, because battery technology has been focused on old tech.

The principle source is the DRC, with "artisanal" production making up a huge amount of production, with a hugely questionable human rights record.

It's not all Droopy-style doom and gloom though, there are significant unexploited reserves of Cobalt in Australia, the Philippines and Canada amongst other places. Tesla no longer uses cobalt in its new vehicles. Apple recycles all its cobalt from old batteries. Battery production is focusing on innovations such as Sodium-ion, which doesn't use Cobalt at all. EVs are not exclusively tied to it, and won't be in the future. 

 

[The Phantom]

15 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

I'm imagining that being read in the voice of "Droopy"

There's not much green energy here yet, but we're at the early stages, and there are always obstacles to be overcome, just like when the roads weren't fit for motorised vehicles, there were no petrol stations, no garages, and no electricity. Complex infrastructure changes take time and effort, it's a journey. 

"Unethical" Lithium sourcing keeps coming up in this thread.  77% of Lithium production comes from Australia and Chile, Australia alone responsible for 46%. New sources of Lithium are being investigated. 

Cobalt is more problematic though - it's used in a small way as a catalyst in petrol refining, but you're right, EVs use a lot more, because battery technology has been focused on old tech.

The principle source is the DRC, with "artisanal" production making up a huge amount of production, with a hugely questionable human rights record.

It's not all Droopy-style doom and gloom though, there are significant unexploited reserves of Cobalt in Australia, the Philippines and Canada amongst other places. Tesla no longer uses cobalt in its new vehicles. Apple recycles all its cobalt from old batteries. Battery production is focusing on innovations such as Sodium-ion, which doesn't use Cobalt at all. EVs are not exclusively tied to it, and won't be in the future. 

 

I’m not that depressing!

To be honest, I’m on the fence still with EVs.  In theory on the Island they would a great option.  However our lack of green energy and the mineral mining puts the dampeners on it.

I like to think I’m relatively green, aware of my impact on the environment and try to mitigate.  But I am a car nerd.  So appreciate a howling turbo or good big V8 but can also see the attraction of 3 sec 0-60 times in things like the Teslas.  Although for some reason the EVs seem still to be relatively soulless to me (with the exception of maybe the Porsche Taycan). 

In short, I’m conflicted!

Although my neighbor went big on solar last year and uses that to charge his two EVs.  Now that makes total sense to me.  Although it did cost him £40k (including heat pump, batteries etc).

[CrazyDave]

I still believe EV used prices will plummet (have seen the deals Jackson’s have been doing to try and shift brand new Mercedes recently!!) and the insurance costs will go though the roof over the next 12 to 18 months.

Time will tell, but I wouldn’t be touching one with a barge pole at the moment.

[The Bastard]

1 minute ago, CrazyDave said:

I still believe EV used prices will plummet (have seen the deals Jackson’s have been doing to try and shift brand new Mercedes recently!!) and the insurance costs will go though the roof over the next 12 to 18 months.

Time will tell, but I wouldn’t be touching one with a barge pole at the moment.

They're not for everyone. Some people honestly would be better on a bicycle. Speculating on zero evidence with a negative spin doesn't really advance your argument though, it just illustrates your old-man point of view more than anything.

[Two-lane]

I would prefer other people to find out the problems with new technologies. Let them spend the money and discover the unknown unknowns. When the world has reached a consensus on the best method, then follow that.

I suspect that people on the island who are pressing for spending money on unproven technology are doing it for their own ego - so they can go on the Internet and proclaim "The IoM is a leader, and It was all because of me".

I bought a copy of OS/2 a few years ago. It was thought to be the future. About as popular these days as a pair of flared trousers.

[Dirty Buggane]

What the island needs is a HS2 type rail right down the middle by tunnel and above ground railway, with spurs every mile. With a plethora of  bicycle rack's at every station and free to use bikes. Should cost around £1.7 billion allowing for gov fuck ups will cost us £4.1 billion. Could use old engines and rolling stock and call it heritage like the prom tramway.

[The Bastard]

39 minutes ago, Two-lane said:

I would prefer other people to find out the problems with new technologies. Let them spend the money and discover the unknown unknowns. When the world has reached a consensus on the best method, then follow that.

I suspect that people on the island who are pressing for spending money on unproven technology are doing it for their own ego - so they can go on the Internet and proclaim "The IoM is a leader, and It was all because of me".

I bought a copy of OS/2 a few years ago. It was thought to be the future. About as popular these days as a pair of flared trousers.

It's not unproven technology though. It's a proven technology, that's in use daily by millions of people. It needs development (as do Petrol vehicles) but it's a long way from "unproven". 

Waiting for broad consensus is  known as being a "laggard" on the technological curve. Technology initially has early adopters, but gradually moves into the mainstream. EVs aren't restricted to ego-driven early adopters, they're in use by a lot of people who wouldn't consider themselves early adopters of technology, which shows they're a mainstream tech. 

You're also a bit confused between successful and proven. BetaMax was apparently the better format over VHS, but still failed. Google+ was good, but failed.  OS/2 was regarded as technically superior to Windows 95, but failed to get market penetration. Things don't fail just on technical merits, they fail for a lot of reasons - image, marketing, competition.

OS/2 wasn't a few years ago either, it came out in 1987  

Edited January 16 by The Bastard

[mad_manx]

20 hours ago, quilp said:

The insurance on my hybrid (1.6L, 2017/18, 20k mileage) was £186 fully comp for both of us. Surprised that this is £40 less per year than the 2010 Fiesta 1.6 zetec S we had previously.

Charlton and Hodgson.

Is it a hyundai ioniq? .. great car.. Friend of mine used to have one 

[CrazyDave]

3 minutes ago, mad_manx said:

Is it a hyundai ioniq? .. great car.. Friend of mine used to have one 

It’s the “is it an ionic, Alanis Morisette limited edition”

It makes people think they are saving the planet and money, when actually they aren’t doing either.

[Utah 01]

9 hours ago, Amadeus said:

Batteries aren’t disposed. They’re recycled.

Do tell. Where? Transported to and by what? Power to recycle derived from what? At what cost does this fabled 'green' utopia come?

Edited January 16 by Utah 01

[The Bastard]

11 minutes ago, CrazyDave said:

It’s the “is it an ionic, Alanis Morisette limited edition”

It makes people think they are saving the planet and money, when actually they aren’t doing either.

CD facts again ?

Although saving the planet is not technically a bad thing, people don't buy EVs just for ecological reasons, and provided they're driving a significant mileage they are actually saving money over the long-term ownership of the vehicle. EVs aren't for everyone though.

If you buy an EV, you get lower tax, much less servicing and maintenance costs and a significantly lower cost of fuel, resulting in a lower total cost of ownership. You're not going to recoup your investment if it sits in the garage and does nothing, but the same is true of a petrol vehicle.

Also depends on what you buy - An MG4 or Nissan Leaf isn't more expensive than an equivalent Focus. A Citroen Ami is a great cheap urban commuter, for just over 7K new. If you're doing 2 thousand miles a week on the motorway, it would be nuts, but if you just want something that'll get you into work dry and at minimum cost, and don't fancy catching COVID on the bus, or want something to give to a new driver that won't end up crashed on the mountain, you'd never be able to get near that price for a new petrol vehicle.

[The Bastard]

23 minutes ago, Utah 01 said:

Do tell. Where? Transported to and by what? Power to recycle derived from what? At what cost does this fabled 'green' utopia come?

Do you not have Google ?