Courtenay Heading again

[ricardo]

20 hours ago, Roxanne said:

I don't know him and I have no direct experience of him. I am fully acceptant of his right to believe whatever he wants to believe. What I have an issue with, is him targeting indvodials who do not disagree with him and making their lives uncomfortable.

Targeting people who do not wave to him and his supporters during morning rush hour and sending them unsolicited emails questioning why, and making them uncomfortable.

Targeting a doctor who's views he does not agree with, stalking them, and sending them three hundred unsolicited emails.

Targeting an individual who did not wish to accept a leaflet about a meeting he was organising, posting her name on social media and devaluing her opinion.

Thises are the things I have knowledge of. There may be more.

These are not the actions of a decent or principled person. These are the actions of someone who believes they have the right to stalk, harass, vilify and make uncomfortable anyone who does not agree with their views. 

This is crossing the line. This is not informing people, this is threatening them with retribution for not agreeing with them.

Ironically, the views they hold, together with any decency or principles go out of the window when they behave in the way that has been already documented and charges brought. So, their very behaviour in spreading their message is the stumbling block that stops them ever having a chance of being taken seriously. Instead they are just thought of as being a dangerous crank.

Not the best descriptor for someone who wants to 'spread the word', is it, and not the best strategy for getting people on side.

If it was a business, the model couldn't be worse, in fact.

I cannot argue with this. Nor was I aware of Courtenay’s Twitter thread, which sadly is indefensible.

Having experienced Courtenay in ‘rant mode’ in the past myself I spoke with an experienced, and successful, activist who said that the process can at times, ‘drive a person a little mad’. I can understand that - it’s akin to banging one’s head against the wall.

However, the issue at stake here is real. Courtenay, and many others, basically believes that ‘end of life pathways’ were used inappropriately. These beliefs are not without substance. If that is the case - and any reader here believed that process was used inappropriately on any person you cared about - one may conclude that a significant degree of disruptive behavior was appropriate in order to bring attention to the issue. Whether that is right or wrong is a different matter.

[Gladys]

44 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I cannot argue with this. Nor was I aware of Courtenay’s Twitter thread, 

Do your research.

[Gladys]

46 minutes ago, ricardo said:

 

However, the issue at stake here is real. Courtenay, and many others, basically believes that ‘end of life pathways’ were used inappropriately. These beliefs are not without substance. If that is the case - and any reader here believed that process was used inappropriately on any person you cared about - one may conclude that a significant degree of disruptive behavior was appropriate in order to bring attention to the issue. Whether that is right or wrong is a different matter.

Belief is not fact.  The decision as to appropriateness or not of certain treatments by those who are neither qualified nor in full possession of the facts is subjective speculation. 

If you mean the funeral I referred to, it was not an appropriate time or place to bring attention to the issue.  Much latitude was given to this person by non-family members who tried to calm them, grief being shown in many ways.  

If this person was so convinced, then the correct parties to accuse were the doctors and nurses, but that would never happen as there would be calm explanations of a few facts. 

 

[PeachTea]

i think this must be the fella who stands on spring valley roundabout in all weathers. I have not seen him in Ramsey though.

 

[Banker]

1 hour ago, PeachTea said:

i think this must be the fella who stands on spring valley roundabout in all weathers. I have not seen him in Ramsey though.

 

There’s 5 or 6 most days opposite town hall in Ramsey in justice for the jabbed shirts !!

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, Banker said:

There’s 5 or 6 most days opposite town hall in Ramsey in justice for the jabbed shirts !!

Only saw  three yesterday. Maybe a couple have succumbed to the Covid virus and are recuperating in bed at home.

[Chie]

14 hours ago, ricardo said:

I cannot argue with this. Nor was I aware of Courtenay’s Twitter thread, which sadly is indefensible.

Having experienced Courtenay in ‘rant mode’ in the past myself I spoke with an experienced, and successful, activist who said that the process can at times, ‘drive a person a little mad’. I can understand that - it’s akin to banging one’s head against the wall.

However, the issue at stake here is real. Courtenay, and many others, basically believes that ‘end of life pathways’ were used inappropriately. These beliefs are not without substance. If that is the case - and any reader here believed that process was used inappropriately on any person you cared about - one may conclude that a significant degree of disruptive behavior was appropriate in order to bring attention to the issue. Whether that is right or wrong is a different matter.

Is it though, and have you ACTUALLY done any REAL research on this? Usually when people get involved in conspiracy theories they tend to edge towards only research that results in confirmation bias. Usually only reading research compiled by other conspiracy theorist and convincing themselves that any other research is just "the establishment" or whatever boogeyman they invented, trying to convince them of lies and deceit.

I know so many people, even members of my own family, that buy into all sorts of ridiculous nonsense. Whether it's Covid conspiracies, Q Anon bullshit, Pizzagate or the Q Anon movie Sound of Silence.

Doing research doesn't mean only reading the sources that confirm what you think and immediately discrediting everyone who doesn't. It means taking the source that states "vaccines are bad" and then researching the claimant, researching the science, researching the figures and statistics as they actually stand, not how people like CH have interpreted them. And then doing the same for the other side who claim "vaccines are good". And then using this amazing thing called "logic" to determine which of the two is most likely to be right, NOT which of the two WE WANT to be right.

There was a doctor, I forget his name now, during the pandemic that was making a big fuss about vaccines and HIS thoughts on how the vaccine should work. Claiming that he had worked for several high profile people including Bill Gates, had his own awesome research lab and all kind of stuff. And so many people, a member of my own family included, was hardcore believing that this guy was the prophesied messiah who was going to save the day. He even wrote this long ass letter making all manner of claims that everyone referenced as being something akin to a vaccine bible.

So, I decided to do my own research and discovered the following. Firstly, that no one had actually read the damn letter beyond the first few paragraphs and if they had they would have discovered that he was trying to do nothing but shill his own weird shady idea of what the covid vaccine should be. Secondly, he didn't have his own lab, he had a f*cking veterinary business in Sweden. Thirdly I could find no actual proof that he had done any serious work for any big named company beyond his own claims. And finally that whenever people were actually looking him up, they weren't doing any real research on him, they were just searching biased terms like "Doctor name real vaccine cure", which was returning all the usual conspiracy websites that were claiming this guy was the returned messiah.

I pretty much decided this guy was a f*ck nut from all of around ten minutes of research and reading.

But, thousands of people bought into it and repeated to one another as "truth". Barely anyone who believed it did any actual research to find out if anything that was claimed was actually true or not, beyond following and reading articles, sites and people that already confirmed the beliefs they were spouting. It showed just how easily in times of fear and uncertainty, people can be taken in by dubious claims and then allow their imaginations to run away with themselves.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Chie

[ricardo]

7 hours ago, Chie said:

Is it though, and have you ACTUALLY done any REAL research on this? Usually when people get involved in conspiracy theories they tend to edge towards only research that results in confirmation bias. Usually only reading research compiled by other conspiracy theorist and convincing themselves that any other research is just "the establishment" or whatever boogeyman they invented, trying to convince them of lies and deceit.

I know so many people, even members of my own family, that buy into all sorts of ridiculous nonsense. Whether it's Covid conspiracies, Q Anon bullshit, Pizzagate or the Q Anon movie Sound of Silence.

Doing research doesn't mean only reading the sources that confirm what you think and immediately discrediting everyone who doesn't. It means taking the source that states "vaccines are bad" and then researching the claimant, researching the science, researching the figures and statistics as they actually stand, not how people like CH have interpreted them. And then doing the same for the other side who claim "vaccines are good". And then using this amazing thing called "logic" to determine which of the two is most likely to be right, NOT which of the two WE WANT to be right.

There was a doctor, I forget his name now, during the pandemic that was making a big fuss about vaccines and HIS thoughts on how the vaccine should work. Claiming that he had worked for several high profile people including Bill Gates, had his own awesome research lab and all kind of stuff. And so many people, a member of my own family included, was hardcore believing that this guy was the prophesied messiah who was going to save the day. He even wrote this long ass letter making all manner of claims that everyone referenced as being something akin to a vaccine bible.

So, I decided to do my own research and discovered the following. Firstly, that no one had actually read the damn letter beyond the first few paragraphs and if they had they would have discovered that he was trying to do nothing but shill his own weird shady idea of what the covid vaccine should be. Secondly, he didn't have his own lab, he had a f*cking veterinary business in Sweden. Thirdly I could find no actual proof that he had done any serious work for any big named company beyond his own claims. And finally that whenever people were actually looking him up, they weren't doing any real research on him, they were just searching biased terms like "Doctor name real vaccine cure", which was returning all the usual conspiracy websites that were claiming this guy was the returned messiah.

I pretty much decided this guy was a f*ck nut from all of around ten minutes of research and reading.

But, thousands of people bought into it and repeated to one another as "truth". Barely anyone who believed it did any actual research to find out if anything that was claimed was actually true or not, beyond following and reading articles, sites and people that already confirmed the beliefs they were spouting. It showed just how easily in times of fear and uncertainty, people can be taken in by dubious claims and then allow their imaginations to run away with themselves.

I agree this can happen, and that it does. Frequently.

I also believe that an important word you omitted is ‘discernment’. Without the use of which, even large volumes of research - ‘REAL’ or otherwise - can be rendered futile. And if used wisely, allows sane and reasonable conclusions to be made.

My intention in visiting this forum is not to criticise, rant, be proven ‘right’, and certainly not to meaninglessly argue, although have done my share of all, but in the näive hope of encouraging the odd reader or two, to check out the alternative perspective before choosing to inject yourselves or loved ones. For there is no going back once you have done so. As I have said before, the statistics, and evidence, are/is dire (literally hundreds of parents relate ‘horror stories’ of the autistic ‘before and after’ about children who were vaccinated*).

Having written at length about the subject previously I am not inclined to do so again. But will repeat my assertion - based on mountains of research (‘REAL’ or otherwise) and face to face conversations with genuine experts (in my experience, these are usually people who have an understanding of how little they know) - that the entire vaccine ‘industry’ is a fraud. Countless genuine experts - those in a position to know - say similar. Their views are either ‘gagged’ by media/law or suppressed. Or worse. All of which is easily discovered by anyone sufficiently interested.

If the vaccine ‘industry’ was simply fraudulent that would be bad enough, but it is not. It has done irreparable harm, and worse, to tens of thousands of recipients - more likely 00’s of 000’s - mostly whom were ignorant of the risks. Those few injured who are brave or wealthy enough to fight back in the courts normally eventually agree to ‘gagging’ orders as part of any settlement, which is partly why so little of this information is in the public domain. But it is all accessible for those sufficiently interested.

 

* No doubt some will pipe up, or think, ‘correlation is not causality’, which is of course true. There are however, literally hundreds of accounts by traumatised parents, of dramatic and immediate changes in their children, post early vaccination. It is obvious, without any research being needed, that these vaccines are responsible, yet the drug industry keeps pushing them, and medical professionals keep administering them. Those involved should hang their heads in shame. And if the worst that happens is Courtenay Heading being ranty or impolite they/you have got off lightly.

[Cueey Lewis And The News]

That is literally a stream of pseudo-intellectual bullshit. 

[Roxanne]

10 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Only saw  three yesterday. Maybe a couple have succumbed to the Covid virus and are recuperating in bed at home.

It is my understanding that Mr Heading has been otherwise engaged these last couple of days.

[Roxanne]

3 hours ago, ricardo said:

Courtenay Heading being ranty or impolite they/you have got off lightly.

Being ranty or impolite toward organisations is one thing, being ranty or impolite to individuals, is something completely different. That's the issue for people like him and that's what turns others away from anything useful they may have to say. They don't help your cause,they hinder it.

I don't agree with your views, but, because you have presented them well and not been ranty or impolite, I read them and consider them.

Courtney just makes me want to run away and hide, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Roxanne
remove a line.

[Gladys]

What always seems to be missing from the debate, is how many lives have been saved from vaccinations.  Of course, this cannot be definitive, but statistics like 'prior to the introduction of a vax against x disease, this percentage of the population could expect to die or be permanently adversely affected by it'.  

We all know of the eradication of small pox, but what about other diseases? I am thinking particularly of the common childhood diseases, which are now so rare, but were common when I was growing up.  You had to run the gauntlet of measles, mumps, chicken pox, scarlet fever and German measles through childhood. 

Also, improved medical care, nutrition, housing etc  are likely to improve the outcomes of many diseases that are routinely vaccinated against without vaccination, but we never seem to have that aspect considered.

 

[Capt_Mainwaring]

17 minutes ago, Gladys said:

What always seems to be missing from the debate, is how many lives have been saved from vaccinations.  Of course, this cannot be definitive, but statistics like 'prior to the introduction of a vax against x disease, this percentage of the population could expect to die or be permanently adversely affected by it'.  

This is the balance that's missing from the likes of Heading and his ilk's arguments.

Where would we be now had the covid vaccine still not been in existence? I'm not sure we could definitively say but I'm sure lockdowns would have gone on longer, even more businesses would have succumbed, more deaths.

[Banker]

43 minutes ago, Gladys said:

What always seems to be missing from the debate, is how many lives have been saved from vaccinations.  Of course, this cannot be definitive, but statistics like 'prior to the introduction of a vax against x disease, this percentage of the population could expect to die or be permanently adversely affected by it'.  

We all know of the eradication of small pox, but what about other diseases? I am thinking particularly of the common childhood diseases, which are now so rare, but were common when I was growing up.  You had to run the gauntlet of measles, mumps, chicken pox, scarlet fever and German measles through childhood. 

Also, improved medical care, nutrition, housing etc  are likely to improve the outcomes of many diseases that are routinely vaccinated against without vaccination, but we never seem to have that aspect considered.

 

Of course Heading and his mob are against all vaccines including childhood ones which is why there’s a rise in diseases like measles etc. of course he and all his followers all had these when they were younger so fully protected 

[De nada]

https://www.three.fm/news/isle-of-man-news/ramsey-man-taken-to-court-for-contravening-dog-walking-bylaws/?fbclid=IwAR0Izi6gAj0yuiX0hxjyUc8JnoLA9splcyU_eyZJHlXL7IEFPbznTAFrtS0