Chris Thomas and the sea services agreement

[Stu Peters]

3 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

The market is irrelevant, it's a publicly owned public service with little to no competition. 

It was left to the free market for years, it didn't work in modern times.

Now it's being left to the market and we are footing the bill - the worst of both worlds.

We have a golden opportunity with public ownership, target tourist travel could be subsided, exports increased, you name it.

Instead we continue with an expensive sham of arms length independence, paid for by the taxpayer who is receiving no more benefit than they did before parting with millions to buy the bloody thing.

It's madness.

You have obviously forgotten that one of my first questions in parliament was whether IOMG could offer significantly reduced fares on ‘quiet’ crossings to encourage more visitors. I think a cheap package deal with hotel accommodation would bring droves of visitors in. I was told it wasn’t our job…

[woolley]

2 hours ago, Yibble said:

Are you seriously suggesting the Packet would be better run if our politicians micro-managed it? 

If so, could you perhaps give us some examples of their successful intervention in running businesses or capital projects?

 

Exactly, and on top of that, the unions would have a field day. They'd bypass the company and go straight to the politicians as they are trying to do in the current dispute. Very bad idea!

[A fool and his money.....]

1 hour ago, Stu Peters said:

You have obviously forgotten that one of my first questions in parliament was whether IOMG could offer significantly reduced fares on ‘quiet’ crossings to encourage more visitors. I think a cheap package deal with hotel accommodation would bring droves of visitors in. I was told it wasn’t our job…

Fair play to you for that. It sounds like you think it should be your job, I would agree with you.

[Twitch]

1 hour ago, Stu Peters said:

You have obviously forgotten that one of my first questions in parliament was whether IOMG could offer significantly reduced fares on ‘quiet’ crossings to encourage more visitors. I think a cheap package deal with hotel accommodation would bring droves of visitors in. I was told it wasn’t our job…

Whoever told you was correct. Perhaps you should offer your consultancy services to these guys for example https://www.visitiom.co.uk

[woolley]

1 hour ago, Stu Peters said:

You have obviously forgotten that one of my first questions in parliament was whether IOMG could offer significantly reduced fares on ‘quiet’ crossings to encourage more visitors. I think a cheap package deal with hotel accommodation would bring droves of visitors in. I was told it wasn’t our job…

Thing is that our government think they can get top dollar for everything, and if they can't, they prefer to go without (prominent empty sites in Douglas for 30 years etc.) or mess up (TT merchandise deal etc.).

[Lilly]

1 hour ago, Stu Peters said:

You have obviously forgotten that one of my first questions in parliament was whether IOMG could offer significantly reduced fares on ‘quiet’ crossings to encourage more visitors. I think a cheap package deal with hotel accommodation would bring droves of visitors in. I was told it wasn’t our job…

That's a real shame, Stu.  I would love for my family to come more often, but the price on the ferry is expensive.  Well done for at least asking.

[A fool and his money.....]

2 hours ago, Yibble said:

Are you seriously suggesting the Packet would be better run if our politicians micro-managed it? 

If so, could you perhaps give us some examples of their successful intervention in running businesses or capital projects?

 

You're missing the point completely. I'm not suggesting they micro-manage it at all. What I am suggesting is that they manage policy. What's the point of owning it if they don't do that?

The arms length thing is a nonsense. Considering the money we have and continue to sink into it, it stands to reason that it should be run in our best interests. The people we elect to act in our best interests are politicians, not business men - they act in the best interest of the business, not the business users, nor the greater good of the island. They are not accountable to us at all.

I'm not suggesting politicians should involve themselves in running a business either. The Steam Packet is a public service first, that is the most important thing, that's why we've sunk millions of public money into buying it and updating the fleet, providing berths for it to use. To all intents and purposes it is no longer a business, nor should it be. 

I take your point about incompetence within government, there's no arguing with that - but at least they are somewhat accountable to us. Many politicians have been displaced by their incompetence in recent years - true the quality of the replacements in many cases has been poor - but that's no reason to forgo democracy altogether. My own view is they are paid far too much, it attracts the wrong kind of people for the wrong reasons, but that's another debate.

The point being that politicians are as accountable as it gets within government and certainly within arms length quangos or whatever you want to call them. I wouldn't mind betting they're pulling more strings and having a greater influence on the Racket than they let on anyway - let's bring it out into the open and hold them accountable to make sure it's in our best interests.

 

[A fool and his money.....]

33 minutes ago, Twitch said:

Whoever told you was correct. Perhaps you should offer your consultancy services to these guys for example https://www.visitiom.co.uk

If forming policy for a public service is not the job of a politician then who's job is it? And how do we get rid of them if they don't use that power in our best interests?

[Yibble]

10 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

The point being that politicians are as accountable as it gets within government and certainly within arms length quangos or whatever you want to call them. 

 

OK, if that's the key point, could you give some examples of how this accountability has operated in (say) the Liverpool ferry terminal project, the prom, the airport, the health service etc. etc? Feel free to pick your own IoMG fiasco.  I'd be particularly interested to learn how the accountability you highlight has led to positive, or at least more positive outcomes.

 

[Max Power]

I feel that there should be a simple government sea and air services strategy and that should form the basis of a basic agreement. 

We seem as far away as ever from having a cost effective and inexpensive solution for travel to and from the island, particularly at times such as the TT and MGP when we have the opportunity to attract more visitors to spend in the island's economy. I have the distinct impression that there is a bit of a war going on between the SPCo and Government to decide who is the boss, and it's we who are suffering?  

 

[A fool and his money.....]

1 hour ago, Yibble said:

OK, if that's the key point, could you give some examples of how this accountability has operated in (say) the Liverpool ferry terminal project, the prom, the airport, the health service etc. etc? Feel free to pick your own IoMG fiasco.  I'd be particularly interested to learn how the accountability you highlight has led to positive, or at least more positive outcomes.

 

So should we leave it in the hands of people who are totally unaccountable then? Just forgo democracy altogether?

There are examples of accountability. I think the prom did for Tim Baker (hooray for that), possibly the Sloc for Phil Gawne, the Ransom fiasco for Ashford's ministerial position.

What I absolutely can't think of is where the leader of an arms length government organisation that has been held  accountable for their fiascos, nor of a politician that has either.

It's very easy to write off anything government do as crap. Very, very often I'll agree with you. I really can't think of any examples of business people running a public service as a successful public service though. Remember the bus cancellations while ferrying cruise ship passengers around? Remember the airport at a standstill? Ever tried to get a dentist these days. What is it they call it? Corprotisation? Commercialisation? I can't keep up. 

The bottom line is a public service should be a public service, not a business. I can't remember how many tens of millions of our money has been spent proving a political will for the Racket to be a public service. Why are we pretending different and why are we obsolving democratic scrutiny of its running by this arms length nonsense? 

[A fool and his money.....]

2 hours ago, woolley said:

Exactly, and on top of that, the unions would have a field day. They'd bypass the company and go straight to the politicians as they are trying to do in the current dispute. Very bad idea!

I'm not sure treating employees providing a public service fairly is a bad idea tbh. 

We seemed happy enough treating the foreign venture capitalists who had been raping the steam Packet for all it was worth for years fairly. We could have just not extended the user agreement and saved millions buying their business.

From what I can tell the steam packet are trying to fire and rehire crew members who won't agree to working away from home for two weeks at a time. Presumably with a view to bringing in foreign labour if they don't cave in. Personally I think the government should be above such things. They did it with the bus drivers remember and how has that worked out for our bus service? 

This dispute is absolutely something the government should be involved in. 

[woolley]

2 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

I'm not sure treating employees providing a public service fairly is a bad idea tbh. 

We seemed happy enough treating the foreign venture capitalists who had been raping the steam Packet for all it was worth for years fairly. We could have just not extended the user agreement and saved millions buying their business.

From what I can tell the steam packet are trying to fire and rehire crew members who won't agree to working away from home for two weeks at a time. Presumably with a view to bringing in foreign labour if they don't cave in. Personally I think the government should be above such things. They did it with the bus drivers remember and how has that worked out for our bus service? 

This dispute is absolutely something the government should be involved in. 

No, no, no. The unions would run absolute rings around them. I don't think you understand the nature of the current dispute either. It's not about firing and rehiring. It's chiefly about getting the maximum resilience for the service to the Island, and using resources to their best effect. The company wants to do a deal, and there must be an agreement reachable on this. The unions cannot be allowed to thwart the optimum running of the sea service to the Island.

[A fool and his money.....]

22 minutes ago, woolley said:

No, no, no. The unions would run absolute rings around them. I don't think you understand the nature of the current dispute either. It's not about firing and rehiring. It's chiefly about getting the maximum resilience for the service to the Island, and using resources to their best effect. The company wants to do a deal, and there must be an agreement reachable on this. The unions cannot be allowed to thwart the optimum running of the sea service to the Island.

"Using resources to their best effect."

Sounds very plausible. I remember a few years ago when personnel departments started being called "human resources". It's only a little thing really, but it's fair to say workers now are treated like resources, like inanimate objects, ferries, busses, office space.

The problem is they're not like these things at all. Most if not all workplaces reply to a large extent on good will. The last thing any kind of customer service operation needs is a workforce of disgruntled employees. Steam packet staff work long unsociable hours in often difficult conditions, for a near universally hated company. They aren't paid particularly well either. 

I can tell you exactly what will happen if you consider them as resources to be used to their best effect - you'll get a lot less out of them.

My grandad used to say  "if you can't get someone to do something for you by patting them on the back, you won't get them to do it by kicking them up the ass either". 

Treat your staff well, much better than you have to and they'll walk through walls for you. 

[woolley]

6 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

"Using resources to their best effect."

Sounds very plausible. I remember a few years ago when personnel departments started being called "human resources". It's only a little thing really, but it's fair to say workers now are treated like resources, like inanimate objects, ferries, busses, office space.

The problem is they're not like these things at all. Most if not all workplaces reply to a large extent on good will. The last thing any kind of customer service operation needs is a workforce of disgruntled employees. Steam packet staff work long unsociable hours in often difficult conditions, for a near universally hated company. They aren't paid particularly well either. 

I can tell you exactly what will happen if you consider them as resources to be used to their best effect - you'll get a lot less out of them.

My grandad used to say  "if you can't get someone to do something for you by patting them on the back, you won't get them to do it by kicking them up the ass either". 

Treat your staff well, much better than you have to and they'll walk through walls for you. 

The "resources" I was referring to was the capability of Manxman to lose fewer sailings to the weather than hitherto given the flexibility of the live on board arrangements. It's something worth having for the Island, and I think a deal can be done on it.