Augustus Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 He has also bizarrely chosen to head it with a large dictionary definition of "democracy" making it very clear what he expects people's answers to be. By any measure, not an even-handed "consultation" in the way it has been put to the public. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred the shred Posted January 4 Author Share Posted January 4 I totally disagree Roger the consultation is straightforward and concise unlike the usual government consultations that go on page after page until you lose the will to live. I hope everyone fills it in . There is no need for public meetings or debates just keep it simple. Everyone has an opinion on this and now is the chance to express it. This has been debated in Tynwald, in churches and amongst the public it does not need any more time spent on it. Your criticism is illogical and baseless. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StCatherine Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 It seems to be grinding Mr Flints gears on Twitter, perhaps as he can’t vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2112 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 51 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: I've now had the chance to look at Hooper's 'consultation' and it's as incompetent and arrogant as you'd expect. He was only instructed to consult on the Bishop's vote question, but he's added on two other questions as well: on the Bishop's membership and on prayers. More to the point he's made them mandatory, so you have to answer them for your position on the Bishop's vote to be considered. I'd argue that this invalidates the process on its own. What he hasn't added however is any question on whether people think the whole of LegCo should be elected. Funny that. He asks a name and for a declarations that the person is a Manx resident (which may be fair enough, but wasn't required by Tynwald either), which has the effect of removing anonymity without really checking that the responses are valid. He says "all responses will be treated as anonymous", but you wonder if people might be worried about the consequences of saying the wrong thing to the person in charge of the Heath Services, especially if they don't always believe what he says. He also says "I don't believe any other demographic factors are relevant and so I am deliberately not collecting this data" but age might be very relevant. We know only 34% of those aged 25-29 identified as Christian in the Census for example while 88% of those over 85 did. So a response that slants old or young could be biased. What's also interesting is what the consultation process doesn't include. There are no public meetings or debates; no attempts to meet interested parties. And there's nothing in the 'consultation' to allow people to give reasons or an alternative view. Again perhaps people might decide to use it to demand a wider reform of LegCo - clearly we can't have that. If Hooperman insists on collating names of those replying, how is this governed, with the use of data under GDPR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StCatherine Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 15 minutes ago, 2112 said: If Hooperman insists on collating names of those replying, how is this governed, with the use of data under GDPR? He will be registered with the info commissioner as a data processor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cissolt Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 11 hours ago, StCatherine said: He will be registered with the info commissioner as a data processor. He isn't on the current register. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTail Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 9 minutes ago, cissolt said: He isn't on the current register. Being an MHK he is above the law. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 13 hours ago, Roger Mexico said: He also says "I don't believe any other demographic factors are relevant and so I am deliberately not collecting this data" but age might be very relevant. We know only 34% of those aged 25-29 identified as Christian in the Census for example while 88% of those over 85 did. So a response that slants old or young could be biased. What's also interesting is what the consultation process doesn't include. There are no public meetings or debates; no attempts to meet interested parties. And there's nothing in the 'consultation' to allow people to give reasons or an alternative view. Again perhaps people might decide to use it to demand a wider reform of LegCo - clearly we can't have that. I agree this is a survey rather than consultation. There's no opportunity for interested parties to comment on the proposal. Maybe there's a way to find common ground between parties (Stu's proposal that the Bishop is automatically included in the shortlist of Legco nominees for example). You are even forced to answer YES/NO on the prayers question, when my answer would be - Don't care so long it's not compulsory. It's not poll either which would use a sample of the population, not just the motivated like CofE congregations. 19 minutes ago, cissolt said: He isn't on the current register. He's not the data keeper though. It's the third party survey software that is. Only data is name (which isn't validated) and that they live on the Isle of Man, so hardly specific information. Edited January 5 by Declan 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheldon Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 I knew our Jason could be hard of thinking at times, but this is a next level failure of argument and logic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 14 minutes ago, Sheldon said: I knew our Jason could be hard of thinking at times, but this is a next level failure of argument and logic. We can't maintain every 'Isle of Man custom' or things will stagnate. That sounds like the guy Peter Murcot who rings up the Mannin Line saying that MHKs must support the Church of England because King Charles is head of the church and they have declared an oath to him. How can the bishop be said to represent the Catholic church? Did Henry V111 labour in vain to create the Church of England? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Flint Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 On 1/4/2024 at 8:18 PM, StCatherine said: It seems to be grinding Mr Flints gears on Twitter, perhaps as he can’t vote. If you disagree that this is yet another example of sideshow grandstanding/ distracting/ fiddling whilst Ronague burns/ rearranging the deckchairs on the Manxman, then fair enough. I've still got interests, family and friends on the Island. It matters a great deal to me, and right now, in the midst of a global crisis and its own, quite serious and testing travails, the eyes of its Government and Parliament need to be on much more important and pressing matters than what the Bishop brings to the table. even Lawrie agrees the consultation is a waste of time. I just happen to think the whole thing is. Tell me I'm wrong. On 1/5/2024 at 8:49 AM, cissolt said: He isn't on the current register. He is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2112 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 48 minutes ago, Derek Flint said: If you disagree that this is yet another example of sideshow grandstanding/ distracting/ fiddling whilst Ronague burns/ rearranging the deckchairs on the Manxman, then fair enough. I've still got interests, family and friends on the Island. It matters a great deal to me, and right now, in the midst of a global crisis and its own, quite serious and testing travails, the eyes of its Government and Parliament need to be on much more important and pressing matters than what the Bishop brings to the table. even Lawrie agrees the consultation is a waste of time. I just happen to think the whole thing is. Tell me I'm wrong. He is. Well put, and totally in agreement. There is a Manx pressure group (Reayrts?) who are also doing a survey, via their Facebook page, interlinked with IOMNP. Hoopermans consultation is totally biased whatever way it’s done, and whatever is suggested. Constitutional matters and matters like the Bishops vote, should go to an island wide referendum, if Hooperman truly believed in democracy. The question of the abolition of Legco and democratically elected MLCs, and democratically elected Chief Minister should be put to an island wide referendum. Maybe Hooperman is scared of the consequences of what might arise? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asitis Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 There should definitely be an island wide referendum on who we want to get rid from the current iteration of the administration ! This would sharpen a few pencils I think ! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Buggane Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I agree, but could we not widen the referendum to include any MHK's who we think are incompetent or just plain invisible. That would really make them sit up and take notice and maybe sting a few into action. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casta Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 20 minutes ago, asitis said: There should definitely be an island wide referendum on who we want to get rid from the current iteration of the administration ! This would sharpen a few pencils I think ! We have far, far better than a referendum - a General Election every 5 years. But of course, even that system is fundamentally flawed. Referendums are not some sort of magical panacea. There is no such thing as good democracy. It is a highly subjective matter. Hooper is meddling. He needs to do his proper job. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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