Bishop V Hooper

[asitis]

58 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

Kenneth Williams?

I can't remember but probably ! LOL

[Gladys]

1 hour ago, code99 said:

Like your post. Unfortunately, Manx Care has the Manx public by the jugular – the clowns in Tynwald voted for a 7-year contract with Manx Care, which was also near impossible to get out without incurring huge penalties.

 

Penalties from who to whom? 

[Max Power]

As I've said before and elsewhere, this is a blatant attack on one position because it happens to represent the religious life of the island, and the secular communists think they are down with the kids by actively trying to remove it!

The wider question, which in my mind is far more important, is why does a nominated committee of people stuffed in by MHKs to suit their own agendas, have votes in Tynwald? We saw how there was a glut of female MLCs elected a few years ago, to suit another equality agenda, irrespective of the suitability of any other candidates. 

In my opinion LEGCO should be a reviewing body, with powers to amend and return legislation perhaps three times only. 

This island is so tightly bound into captive traditions and red tape that actual governance is unimportant! 

[Declan]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

As I've said before and elsewhere, this is a blatant attack on one position because it happens to represent the religious life of the island, and the secular communists think they are down with the kids by actively trying to remove it!

The wider question, which in my mind is far more important, is why does a nominated committee of people stuffed in by MHKs to suit their own agendas, have votes in Tynwald? We saw how there was a glut of female MLCs elected a few years ago, to suit another equality agenda, irrespective of the suitability of any other candidates. 

In my opinion LEGCO should be a reviewing body, with powers to amend and return legislation perhaps three times only. 

This island is so tightly bound into captive traditions and red tape that actual governance is unimportant! 

In my mind your first two points are connected. 

1. The bishop is an appointed from off Island and shouldn't exercise power in Tynwald. It's not really about Christianity - I'd feel the same if the Governor was still voting or the Chief Constable or the High Bailiff. 

2. It's also wrong that LEGCO is unelected. At least they're appointed by people voted for the Manx people. So you could argue that the representatives of the people recognised a gender imbalance that many voters were unhappy with and sought to correct it. But I'd still rather LEGCO was elected. You could make a case for your proposal for them as a revising body but they also sit and vote in Tynwald at the moment. 

Unfortunately every attempt at democratising Tynwald gets thrown out because its in the interest of current insiders to maintain the status quo. They say there are more pressing issues, or they agree in principle but not the detail of each successive and as a last resort say the public needs consulting. Really the bishop thing should have been done as part of wholesale changes to LEGCO. However the road to democracy is often a series of small steps - this happened in the 19th and 20th Century - I recognise that, but we've stopped making progress and the Island is atrophying. Removing the Bishop's vote would be a baby step but at least it would give me hope of further progress, because at the moment I don't know why I bother voting, because my vote is incidental to the business of government. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Declan

[Thomas Dalby]

Some of the reaction to the bill is rather histrionic. The Bishop would still be on Legco and in Tynwald ex officio, like the AG, and would be free to speak to offer advice and guidance to Tynwald members. The bill just removes the Bishop’s right to vote on the ground that the Church of England has no inherent entitlement to legislate for others. The idea that anyone who votes for it must be some red-blooded revolutionary and not fit to look the Bishop, the Lt Gov or a royal dignitary in the eye in a world where the Queen shook hands with Gerry Adams is ridiculous.

And, branching off a bit here, but it being the Church of England they would not be able to tell you now how their Bishop when appointed would actually vote on most issues (assisted dying?), just how important it is that they have a vote.

 

 

[Two-lane]

There are 193 (or maybe 195) countries in the world.

There are 3 countries in the world which have religious leaders as part of Government by right  - and one of those is Iran, which is hardly a democratic country.

I do not understand how there can be any discussion about this subject.

 

[Max Power]

4 minutes ago, Thomas Dalby said:

Some of the reaction to the bill is rather histrionic. The Bishop would still be on Legco and in Tynwald ex officio, like the AG, and would be free to speak to offer advice and guidance to Tynwald members. The bill just removes the Bishop’s right to vote on the ground that the Church of England has no inherent entitlement to legislate for others. The idea that anyone who votes for it must be some red-blooded revolutionary and not fit to look the Bishop, the Lt Gov or a royal dignitary in the eye in a world where the Queen shook hands with Gerry Adams is ridiculous.

And, branching off a bit here, but it being the Church of England they would not be able to tell you now how their Bishop when appointed would actually vote on most issues (assisted dying?), just how important it is that they have a vote.

 

 

You are right of course. The histrionics seem to be coming from the church itself, threatening the future of the Manx diocese. My attitude to that would be, so what?

Although I still question the motivation for picking on the Bishop. I don't altogether agree with @Declan on the democratic makeup of the LEGCO and its ability to vote in Tynwald but he makes a good point that small steps may be required towards change.  

[Dirty Buggane]

Legco should be abolished and replaced by a public Committee, which would be elected by entering your interest and being given a number on a ball which would be publicly picked out of a lotto machine. Would consist of eleven representatives who would them serve a 15 month  term

 You would receive no payment and your job would be to scrutinise what ever the halfwits are up to. Once your term is served you would be barred from applying for 5 years. And you must prove to have a modicum of common sense or out you go.

This makes as much sense as Legco so why not give it a go. What harm would it do. It would definitely make the C M buck his ideas up instead of all his shite just being nodded through. 

[Cueey Lewis And The News]

Aside from this can anyone remember anything Hooper has done since 2021? Anything at all. He’s just another Liberal Vannin oxygen thief. Manx Care is in complete disarray but never mind the day job keep on banging on about the Bishop. 

[cissolt]

26 minutes ago, Cueey Lewis And The News said:

Aside from this can anyone remember anything Hooper has done since 2021? Anything at all. He’s just another Liberal Vannin oxygen thief. Manx Care is in complete disarray but never mind the day job keep on banging on about the Bishop. 

It does seem to be a particular bugbear for the political left. Between the Bishop and Gaza they have been frothing in social media 

[Albert Tatlock]

All this focus on the Bishop...when 23/24 of MHKs have done fook all they said they were going to do on their manifestos. And one only partially. 

Meanwhile the island is in an uncontrolled dive.

 

 

 

[Stu Peters]

I have respect for Lawrie, although we’re not bezzies or drinking buddies. So this is just an observation rather than a personal defence.

The health service seems to have been a poisoned chalice for every politician brave or foolish enough to take it on, for as long as I can remember both here and in the UK.

From the outside (I can claim no insights) it appears to be a monstrous bureaucracy with a mixture some wonderful and some sociopathic staff. Consultants ruling with a rod of iron (think the James Robertson Justice character) and a withering disregard for subordinates and patients alike, and more Spanish practices than a Madrid music school. Bullying and intimidation, mini empires and eye watering costs.

It seems to be a juggernaut, out of control, doing what IT thinks is best with no regard to cost or consequence, and we all know it yet choose not to whistle at the devil for fear we’ll be customers at some point.

So to blame ANY politician is unfair. The service is overwhelmed by demanding customers, there isn’t ever enough money in the economy to fund it, so neither side is happy. A suggestion I made during the election was to get rid of anything bar core diagnostic and treatment services and send people away to centres of excellence for everything else. We do that to an extent already, and people would moan that we’re a third world country. Manx Care may or may not be working, it’s too early to tell, but it was a sensible political decision to decouple health from politics.

I’ll defer to Wrighty and others who may have a very different point of view.

[Two-lane]

2 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

From the outside (I can claim no insights) it appears to be a monstrous bureaucracy with a mixture some wonderful and some sociopathic staff. Consultants ruling with a rod of iron (think the James Robertson Justice character) and a withering disregard for subordinates and patients alike, and more Spanish practices than a Madrid music school. Bullying and intimidation, mini empires and eye watering costs.

The costs aside, is it the responsibility of the politicians to do something about this, and if not, whose responsibility is it?

[Stu Peters]

2 minutes ago, Two-lane said:

The costs aside, is it the responsibility of the politicians to do something about this, and if not, whose responsibility is it?

I don’t think there’s a simple answer. Yes, politicians need to ‘do something’ and are constantly trying to do that. But I think we need a wider discussion about what people can reasonably expect of our NHS and who should pay (much) more to fund it. I suspect (looking around some waiting rooms) that those using the service stopped paying for it many years ago (if ever) so there’s an immediate disconnect before you go an inch further.

[Non-Believer]

35 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

It seems to be a juggernaut, out of control, doing what IT thinks is best with no regard to cost or consequence, and we all know it yet choose not to whistle at the devil for fear we’ll be customers at some point.

So to blame ANY politician is unfair.

I see many contradictions in your post Stu.

Firstly, in spite of "arm's length" distancing (a thoroughly fashionable adjective on IoM just now), we elect politicians to control, grapple with and resolve problems.

Ranson would suggest that they are not doing any of the above and verifies the first part of your post that I've included above.