IOMs most pointless vigil?

[HeliX]

Just now, The Voice of Reason said:

“ legislate against your existence “ ?

You mean make laws to kill you?

Its this level of hysteria from the trans camp  that wins them few friends.

Make laws to stop you existing as you should (banning types of gender affirming care) and having the same rights as everyone else (banning from places/spaces/adding extra hoops to jump through to be who you are).

[The Voice of Reason]

2 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Trans people exist. This is both easily observed and well studied. So of course you can't tell someones gender from the bits they were born with. Just as you can't tell their sexuality from the bits they were born with. In both cases you can say what's probable, but not definite.

But you can tell someone’s gender from the bits they were born with. Penis= male, vagina= female. You can’t get away from that.  And don’t give me that gender v sex guff
But you’re right you can’t tell their sexuality from their genitalia. 
So you’re half right

[thommo2010]

3 minutes ago, John Wright said:

It’s made very difficult to transition, socially and medically. The delays in referral and being seen and offered treatment are horrendous. That’s in part due to the mess that’s been created in the UK GIDS by campaigners who have effectively closed it down, because they opposed its philosophy.

To get your gender recognition certificate you have to go through a long an arduous process. Part of which is “living as”. If you do that you break the law every time you go into a public loo.

We've ended up completely medicalising a situation that is at least in part social. That’s how gay men were treated.

Shouldn't that be a good thing that it's difficult? You're making life changing decisions essentially mutilating yourself it's something that should take a period of tike to make sure the person wants it and is medically/mentally fit. 

 

I've seen reports of kids barely in their teens getting hormone blockers etc then years later regretting their decisions and it seems to be a growing number. Now if someone wants to do this then crack on but surely its a good thing there's checks and balances

[John Wright]

7 minutes ago, thommo2010 said:

Shouldn't that be a good thing that it's difficult? You're making life changing decisions essentially mutilating yourself it's something that should take a period of tike to make sure the person wants it and is medically/mentally fit. 

 

I've seen reports of kids barely in their teens getting hormone blockers etc then years later regretting their decisions and it seems to be a growing number. Now if someone wants to do this then crack on but surely its a good thing there's checks and balances

You just make huge assumptions there. 

First not everyone does full bottom or lower surgery. Many keep their bits and rely on the effect of the drugs.

Sure there should be time for reflection and acclimatisation.

But there’s a lack of counselling and support, there’s a huge delay in seeing a shrink here, and even longer before you get to see GIDS ( or whatever will eventually replace ).

And you seem to misunderstand blockers, their purpose and effect. They delay puberty in someone who is expressing gender discordance. That allows the breathing space you say they should have before hormone treatment and surgery.

I’ll make an assumption now. The scientific reports you’ve seen, are in the peer reviewed and balanced Mail, Telegraph, etc. etc. ?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

3 hours ago, Cueey Lewis And The News said:

Another silly woke argument. None of the trans ideology has got anything to do with “gays”. Most people accept most things. But trying to bully people into accepting that centuries old biological science doesn’t exist as it makes some people feel better is what winds many people up. People can be whatever they want to be but that doesn’t change biological science in any way. In the same way that insisting the earth is flat doesn’t make it flat.

I don't agree. Although sexuality and gender are different things, the view of homosexuality and homosexual practices as something subject to morality seems to be a product of gender expectations.  And these expectations have been argued to be a product of and reinforced by the modern idea of heterosexuality and the values behind what it is to be heterosexual.  This is why trans people and gay people have a shared problem and can find common cause.

[The Voice of Reason]

13 minutes ago, John Wright said:

You just make huge assumptions there. 

First not everyone does full bottom or lower surgery. Many keep their bits and rely on the effect of the drugs.

Sure there should be time for reflection and acclimatisation.

But there’s a lack of counselling and support, there’s a huge delay in seeing a shrink here, and even longer before you get to see GIDS ( or whatever will eventually replace ).

And you seem to misunderstand blockers, their purpose and effect. They delay puberty in someone who is expressing gender discordance. That allows the breathing space you say they should have before hormone treatment and surgery.

I’ll make an assumption now. The scientific reports you’ve seen, are in the peer reviewed and balanced Mail, Telegraph, etc. etc. ?

Ah the old PK trick of suggesting a contributor can’t make their own mind up and has been swayed by media outlets with certain reputations.

Edited November 21, 2023 by The Voice of Reason

[The Voice of Reason]

22 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

I don't agree. Although sexuality and gender are different things, the view of homosexuality and homosexual practices as something subject to morality seems to be a product of gender expectations.  And these expectations have been argued to be a product of and reinforced by the modern idea of heterosexuality and the values behind what it is to be heterosexual.  This is why trans people and gay people have a shared problem and can find common cause.

Many gay people are incredibly angry that trans people have hijacked their cause and used their platform. 

And I don’t blame them. 

The gay community have a legitimate cause completely different to tha of the trans debate.

To piggyback in this way on a hard fought battle for legitimacy is completely wrong. 

[HeliX]

43 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

And don’t give me that gender v sex guff

And yet you accuse other people of ignoring reality. Sex and gender are not the same thing no matter how much you protest. You can choose to be wrong about it for the rest of your life if it makes you feel better though.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

On 11/20/2023 at 8:51 AM, The Voice of Reason said:

Hi

I’m not against such a vigil for the reasons you give.

But it must be remembered that so called “ trans activists “ are also responsible for bullying, and committing hate crimes against those who don’t share their particular views. They can be very aggressive.
Again more globally than locally, but maybe their victims also deserve a vigil.

 

You don't generally get your head kicked in for just trying to exist if you're someone a bit muddled by trans people.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

5 hours ago, Cueey Lewis And The News said:

Many people are as thick as pig shit. I’d probably suggest anyone wishing to preach a dogma that literally defies the science of biology just to reinforce their own self belief that they might be something they biologically aren’t might be viewed as equally thick as pig shit. Most people don’t have any issue with any of the trans agenda other than the militant attempt at trying to defy conventional science just because it makes some people feel better. 

Which science does it defy?

The science around brain structure? Or the messiness that is biology?

The brain is a wonderful and complicated thing. It really doesn't take much to influence it. Milligrams of the right chemicals will give you the best weekend. A few milligrams more? It'll be the worst, and maybe your last.

Now, imagine what would happen if, say, a mother's antibodies were interfering with that process, when the brain was still trying to form.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

But you can tell someone’s gender from the bits they were born with. Penis= male, vagina= female. You can’t get away from that.  And don’t give me that gender v sex guff
But you’re right you can’t tell their sexuality from their genitalia. 
So you’re half right

What if you're born with both?

Or neither?

Your chromosomes might also be a smidge mangled too. Some syndromes mean you have not XX or XY, but, XXY.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think the topic of trans is getting very messy because of the shifting philosophies, politics and arguments being made by different sections of society.  And for people who don't understand some of the arguments that lie behind the subject it can be confusing. It's confusing for me and I thought I had a good idea about things.

One aspect of looking at things has been something argued by deconstructionist thinkers from the 1980s onwards, which has led acceptability today.  That is that gender is purely or largely a social construct: something formed from through social interactions in developing one's identity (which doesn't mean a person has a choice about how it develops).  A person's gender is a product of values and meaning related to a persons biology and other experiences they've had. 

This can account for why people don't feel as if they really are a man or a woman despite a presumption that they should.

However, many trans people disagree and actually think there is something anatomically different about their brains to account for this body dysmorphia.  This is a scientific positivistic view. I knew someone who completely reject the idea that social constructionism accounts for how they had a man's body.

It does seem that to some degree that gender cannot completely be consider a social construct from studies of very young children and their behaviours.  Nevertheless, the social constructionist view is still very popularly believed.

The question is what it is to be a man or a woman.  If gender is largely (or purely) a social construct then it isn't simply a matter of anatomy but about one's identity and societies understanding of those identities.

This why trans and gay people used to work for gay liberation which partly involved challenging the gender norms and expectations in society. 

Many trans people do, however, have gender reassigning surgery, which is more accurately a sex reassignment surgery.  The alternative for them is either performing gender expectations in opposition to their sense of self.  That does involve taking on those same gender expectations of what it is to be a man or a woman.  Regardless of what they choose, society criticising and attacks such people.

Other trans people have no interest in surgery and decide to naturally  express their gender, which doesn't meet gender expectations on them. They are criticised and attacked for this.

Other people realise that they don't feel that they are either man or woman. They feel like they must be something in between. Again, they are attacked for this.

A lot of the problem at the moment is that a lot of rather lightweight right-wing thinkers have railed against any non-positivistic views of gender.  Unfortunately, there seems to be a vacuum when it comes to LGBT thinkers who can present and argue social constructivism

I think this is largely a result of the detrimental effects that conservative politics have had on the LGBT conformity as a political force.  Unfortunately, conservative gay groups in the US and then in Britan went after the easy prizes of conformity in the heterosexual world by simply chasing after equality.  Everything became about equality.and just being like the straights. Too many people are ok with that because equality have given gay people just enough to be tolerated.  Often there isn't that adject homophobia that forces people, as in the past, to question what the fuck is wrong with society and how can it be changed.  This push for equality and nothing else has dropped trans people and few are able or willing to articulate arguments that take examine and challenge the problems with gender.  And society is poorer for this as most people don't understand what is going on.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by La_Dolce_Vita

[John Wright]

47 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Many gay people are incredibly angry that trans people have hijacked their cause and used their platform

Really? I’m not aware of anyone who is angry. No one has hijacked the “gay cause” ( whatever that is? ).  And I’ve no idea what a gay platform is.

47 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

And I don’t blame them. 

You wouldn’t. You’re too busy being befuddled, confused, distanced from reality for it to be anything other than a trolling exercise.

47 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

The gay community have a legitimate cause completely different to tha of the trans debate

I’d love your explanation of the differences. They are really closely aligned. Why would one have any more legitimacy than the other?

47 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

To piggyback in this way on a hard fought battle for legitimacy is completely wrong

There’s no piggy backing. The struggle is just so similar that you look and make a false claim.

It’s just elements of the establishment marginalising others. It was done to gays, it’s being done to trans. It was done to single mothers. It’s being done now to those in receipt of PIL, DLA and mobility. It’s their duty to work! How long until you, or someone like you claims that wheelchair users are only a benefit cut away from walking.

I see what the right are doing to marginalised groups in the name of freedom of speech. I see what they’re doing to the trans community. I see what they’ve done to abortion rights for women in the States. And if they succeed gays will be next in the firing line.

Any gay man, or woman, who thinks that the equality successes over the last 60 years are embedded, and can’t be taken away very quickly,  is deluding themselves. . The trans struggle is the gay struggle, and vice versa.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

5 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

But gays don’t pretend to be something they’re not.

Quite a few do. It's 'easier' to be, or at least, appear to be heterosexual.

Some can't handle that and kill themselves. Others are executed when it transpires they are in fact gay.

Some only find they can come out late in life, having suffered through miserable marriages, or celibacy.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

43 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Many gay people are incredibly angry that trans people have hijacked their cause and used their platform. 

And I don’t blame them. 

The gay community have a legitimate cause completely different to tha of the trans debate.

To piggyback in this way on a hard fought battle for legitimacy is completely wrong. 

Too many gay people know fuck all about how they have the rights and toleration they have today, which is largely a result of the argument, campaigning, support and politics of gender, which trans people have worked for. Gay men are often the worst for it. 

Any gay person who disavows connection with the subject of anything trans is someone who has an ignorance about the societal meaning and values behind their own sexuality.  It may sound arrogant but consider the existence of campness and butchness it's commonality in people who identify as homosexual.  This is, in a way, a trans thing.  It's a man or woman whose gender performances (I don't mean a fake show but expression) don't accord with a heterosexual gender expectation.

Edited November 21, 2023 by La_Dolce_Vita