Rally for a free Palestine

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, Ringy Rose said:

You have to break the regional cycle of nurturing Jewish hatred towards Arabs generation after generation.

You don't suppose repeated attempts to annihilate the state of Israel had anything to do with that do you...?

Mind you, I agree that the recent settlements springing up in the West Bank under the cover of the war in Gaza need to be bulldozed as they've done previously. But that might need a change of government.

Zealots on both sides = not good, not good at all...

[Newbie]

22 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Everything depends upon the winning of the peace after Hamas' defeat, which makes it so sad hearing Israel's embassador rejecting a two-state solution this morning. 

Especially as the reason given is because the Palestinians reject it. 

Extremist dialogue of the deaf. 

The problem is that the predominant view amongst ordinary Palestinian citizens (at least those who speak out in the media) seems to be that they reject a 2 state solution. Not all, but the majority. When they talk about the occupied territories, most of them are referring not only to the West Bank and Gaza, but to the State of Israel. When asked what should happen to Israeli citizens living there, in the event that the land was returned to the Palestinians, the typical response is that they should return to the countries they are from. Many ordinary Palestinian citizens cannot see themselves living in a Palestinian State alongside Israel. Unfortunately, this happens to fit quite well with the views held by many of the current right wing Israeli administration, although for entirely different reasons. 

In fairness, there are many historical events that make the view held by Palestinian citizens perfectly understandable, and it seems probable that the current Israeli actions will have done nothing to soften those views. However, it does ignore the fact that there is a long history of Jewish people living in that part of the world, and that many others who moved there were themselves fleeing persecution.

Unfortunately, given the views of both the current Israeli administration and the majority of Palestinians, a 2 state solution seems further away than ever. Whilst the comments from the Israeli Ambassador to the UK were ill-judged and unhelpful given the current situation, she would probably argue that she is just facing up to the reality of the situation.

It is hard to know what the answer is, but the removal of Hamas (if that proves possible) would help, as would a change to a much more moderate Israeli administration. 

[Non-Believer]

I wonder how many deaths, on both sides, can be attributed to the creation of Israel since 1948?

[Josem]

1 hour ago, Non-Believer said:

I wonder how many deaths, on both sides, can be attributed to the creation of Israel since 1948?

It is repulsive to try to attribute deaths to a nation being created and existing.

[HeteroErectus]

1 hour ago, Non-Believer said:

I wonder how many deaths, on both sides, can be attributed to the creation of Israel since 1948?

Ssssh! We're not allowed to mention those stats, separated into each "side". It's "anti-semitic".

[HeteroErectus]

6 minutes ago, Josem said:

It is repulsive to try to attribute deaths to a nation being created and existing.

No it's not.

[Non-Believer]

2 hours ago, Josem said:

It is repulsive to try to attribute deaths to a nation being created and existing.

Are you on some sort of hallucinogenics?

Millions of people, both Arab and Jewish and further innocent foreign parties have lost their lives fighting for, contesting and just being in the wrong place at the wrong time over this cause since 1948, all based on entrenched religious ideals. Sinai 1967, Munich 1972, Yom Kippur 1973...it's being going on and on, through 2008 to the present day.

The international community should have learned by now that you cannot "create" a nation by unilaterally drawing lines on a map in an office and then trying to implement it by force. You only have to look at the internal secular bloodshed in Iraq for another example.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Non-Believer
Typo

[Shake me up Judy]

Just in recent world history, many new states were created before and after WW2. Plenty more since then too. Look at how many died in the partition of India and Pakistan. The civil wars in Africa. The break-up of Yugoslavia. Israel is not a unique case.   

[Sheldon]

28 minutes ago, Josem said:

It is repulsive to try to attribute deaths to a nation being created and existing.

What's wrong, did your last stupid post not get any bites?

[Sheldon]

2 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

Just in recent world history, many new states were created before and after WW2. Plenty more since then too. Look at how many died in the partition of India and Pakistan. The civil wars in Africa. The break-up of Yugoslavia. Israel is not a unique case.   

Going back a bit further, the 130 million Native Americans wiped out since Columbus landed might disagree with the assertion too.

[Roger Mexico]

55 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

Just in recent world history, many new states were created before and after WW2. Plenty more since then too. Look at how many died in the partition of India and Pakistan. The civil wars in Africa. The break-up of Yugoslavia. Israel is not a unique case.   

It is really.  Effectively it's the last imperial colony, though founded with the backing of several, rather than just one Western nation.  I can't think of another example since WWII.  Maybe what Russia is currently trying in the occupied areas of Ukraine comes closest, but how successful that will be is another matter.  It's not the same as the partition of India or the movements of populations in eastern Europe after the War, as those were peoples being moved about within particular areas, rather than being settled from other parts of the World.

[Shake me up Judy]

25 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

It is really.  Effectively it's the last imperial colony, though founded with the backing of several, rather than just one Western nation.  I can't think of another example since WWII.  Maybe what Russia is currently trying in the occupied areas of Ukraine comes closest, but how successful that will be is another matter.  It's not the same as the partition of India or the movements of populations in eastern Europe after the War, as those were peoples being moved about within particular areas, rather than being settled from other parts of the World.

It's not an imperial colony.

[Max Power]

5 hours ago, Chinahand said:

Everything depends upon the winning of the peace after Hamas' defeat, which makes it so sad hearing Israel's embassador rejecting a two-state solution this morning. 

Especially as the reason given is because the Palestinians reject it. 

Extremist dialogue of the deaf. 

Oh for the victory of more moderate voices. At least with Israel democratic elections can signal policy changes. I hope Bibi really is wiped out in a post war election. 

But goodness it will take huge leadership and risk for moderates to try to convince the electorate that the likes of Hamas are truly gone and Israelis will be safe from terrorism from Palestinian extremists who desire their annihilation. 

 

I think one thing is rapidly becoming clear, and that is that it is the Zionist element who are one of the major stumbling blocks on the Israeli side. They are almost the equals of the islamic terror organisations.  

[TheTeapot]

14 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I think one thing is rapidly becoming clear, and that is that it is the Zionist element who are one of the major stumbling blocks on the Israeli side. They are almost the equals of the islamic terror organisations.  

That became clear a long time ago. It's just that many choose not to see it.

[Chinahand]

1 hour ago, TheTeapot said:

That became clear a long time ago. It's just that many choose not to see it.

No, they are an element Israeli society but only one element of a very complex set of views all vying to voice how Israel should develop. 

This process has been open, contested and far more democratic than anything in the Arab world. It is easy to sneer at Israeli democracy but genuinely it is grappling with existential issues and in a very open way. 

I hope HeliX acknowledges many of the opinions he admires come from the diversity of Israeli opinion. That alone is a public good and an example of the strength of Israeli society. 

Long may it continue. 

I genuinely admire Israeli self knowledge and its struggles to find peace in its situation. It is far more accepting of pluralism than Palestine and I hope that diversity of view will find a path to peace. 

The Arab world has nothing like it.