Rally for a free Palestine

[Shake me up Judy]

Does that cartoon simplify the issues for you Teapot ? Does it reduce complex issues to the essential truth ? Does it explain which side to back ? Clarity about victim and oppressor ? Inform your sense of natural justice ? All you need to know ? Does it mean that you don't have to think ?

[HeliX]

6 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Now, did antisemites use Zionism as a justification to expel and seize the property of Jews.

Yes, definitely, but that in no way de-legitimises Jewish desires to return and once again I find HeliX's inability to understand this concerning. 

Er, I haven't said anything that disagrees with that. I said Zionism began as an anti-semitic movement. It, quite obviously, was later supported by many Jewish people (and also opposed by many).

I've said this in the other thread, but I don't object to the creation of a Jewish state either. What I object to is creating it by stealing land from an indigenous people who had zero representation at any of the negotiations at the time, and have received zero recompense, and who continue to be oppressed and killed by the newly created state.

[TheTeapot]

4 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

Does that cartoon simplify the issues for you Teapot ? Does it reduce complex issues to the essential truth ? Does it explain which side to back ? Clarity about victim and oppressor ? Inform your sense of natural justice ? All you need to know ? Does it mean that you don't have to think ?

It's art. 

[Shake me up Judy]

1 minute ago, TheTeapot said:

It's art. 

Not enough syllables. Try 'propaganda'.

[TheTeapot]

Just now, Shake me up Judy said:

Not enough syllables. Try 'propaganda'.

It was made by an Israeli.

He was the animation director for the magnificent Waltz with Bashir. That's an incredible film. People should watch it. Art.

 

[Chinahand]

12 minutes ago, HeliX said:

I said Zionism began as an anti-semitic movement.

And that is wrong. Zionism is the return of Jews to their homeland. It is not and was not an Antisemitic movement. It was a Jewish movement building on millennia of Jewish aspirations to return. 

It didn't begin as an Antisemitic movement. Antisemites might have taken advantage of it but that puts the cart before the horse. 

[HeliX]

6 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

And that is wrong. Zionism is the return of Jews to their homeland. It is not and was not an Antisemitic movement. It was a Jewish movement building on millennia of Jewish aspirations to return. 

It didn't begin as an Antisemitic movement. Antisemites might have taken advantage of it but that puts the cart before the horse. 

Okay, to be more specific, Zionism had almost no clout whatsoever until Christian Zionists pushed for it to resolve the "Jewish problem". Zionism came to prominence due to antisemites latching onto it. It did exist before then, but was essentially stagnant.

[quilp]

I wonder at the distinct lack of focus on Iran. It has an extensive involvement in this war, in the preparation, execution and continuation of the carnage, and, of course, the plight of the innocents. The supply of Iranian materiel and manpower, the financial and spiritual support given to the various ruling parties, over decades, makes it at least partly responsible for the current situation...

 

[TheTeapot]

Iran is another place where you have to consider if the collective punishment in the form of sanctions and embargoes and refusal to communicate are actually massively counterproductive.

And that is not in any way to justify the batshit crazy stuff the Islamic revolution has put that country through. 

[Chinahand]

10 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

you have to consider if the collective punishment in the form of sanctions and embargoes and refusal to communicate are actually massively counterproductive.

Not in favour of BDS then Teapot?

[Shake me up Judy]

What do you suggest Teapot ? 'Batshit crazy stuff' makes them sound like a clown outfit rather than a fascist theocracy. 

[TheTeapot]

1 minute ago, Chinahand said:

Not in favour of BDS then Teapot?

No not really, I think it's silly. 

[TheTeapot]

3 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

What do you suggest Teapot ? 'Batshit crazy stuff' makes them sound like a clown outfit rather than a fascist theocracy. 

With Iran? No idea really, but it wasn't that long ago - in your lifetime I reckon but the revolution happened right at the start of mine - that Iran was trying to move forward as part of the modern world, so its got to be reversable. Empowering the women somehow probably. I don't think isolating them works for anyone though, isolation leads to resentment which leads to violence, every single time.

[The Bastard]

Iran's malignant influence casts a huge shadow over the whole zone, if not the world. Not only are they funding and supplying their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah, they're funding and supplying their Houthi proxies in Yemen, who are busily firing missiles into Israel, and exterminating the last remnants of the ancient Yemeni Jewish population.

In Syria, Iranian proxy groups are propping up the struggling Al-Assad regime, along with assistance from Hezbollah. In Iraq, Iranian proxies are attacking the last remnants of US forces, and the enclaves of Kurds in the North.

Iran is playing a long game. The actions of Hamas are not those of a local political struggle. Fundamentally, Hamas is an Iranian proxy, and the murderous raid on Israel was a calculated action to escalate tensions in the region on behalf of Iran.

[code99]

Some 2,000 years ago the Jewish people were banished from their homeland in Palestine (the diaspora). They remained dispersed in many countries around the world until 1948, when British allowed some Jews to return and the State of Israel was established. Throughout these two millennia Jewish people frequently endured latent and overt antisemitic events such as the Alhambra decree in Spain and pogroms in Eastern Europe. The infamous Dreyfus case in France illustrates how even in ‘enlightened’ countries antisemitism was not far below the surface. And of course, the big daddy of all antisemitic events was the Holocaust. But as with most things, nothing is absolute - it would be incorrect to claim that all Jewish people faced persecution, always. For example, the list of British Jewish luminaries is long and extensive, including the former Prime Minister and Queen Victoria’s confidant, Benjamin Disraeli, and one of my personal heroes, an historian and an academic Eric Hobsbawm. On the other hand, the likes of Robert Maxwell and Sir Philip Green played the antisemitic victim’s card when it suited them.

A huge problem is that for the past 2,000 years the land of Palestine has been fought over and been the home of innumerable non-Jewish people. The State of Israel was not created in the middle of an uninhabited desert. The then occupants of Palestine had been living there for generations (some since the Romans) and they too regarded Palestine as their homeland. A protracted bitter conflict was, IMHO, inevitable. What has been happening in the last few weeks in the Gaza Strip can only be described as inhuman. Hamas’s attack on Israeli civilians was inhuman, but so too is Israel’s retaliation. There are no excuses for this level of sustained violence against people how are mainly civilians. How would we feel if these were our children and our families and our homes that were being obliterated? People must understand that the terrorist groups, Hamas and Hezbollah, are not only using Palestinian civilians as human shields, they are simultaneously exposing the brutality of Netanyahu’s government. The extreme religious views held by many members of his government are the anathema to many modern Western liberal values – they hate LGBT movement, non-religious personal freedoms, feminism and emancipation of women (they want women to stay at home and breed children). In many ways Jewish religious fundamentalists share the same values and principles as the clerical establishment (and Modesty Police) in Iran. Netanyahu himself is up to his neck in corruption allegations, a bit like his American comrade Trump. Prior to the Hamas’s attack, Netanyahu was deeply unpopular among large sections of Israeli society – evidenced by weekly large anti-government protests in Tel-Aviv.

Under the Oslo Accords in 1993 (championed by Clinton) Rabin and Arafat came tantalisingly close to some sort of a cooperative way forward. Tragically, the hawks on both sides took over events and it all came to nothing. The world now desperately needs strong leadership from the US, UK and EU. This horrific conflict needs to be urgently de-escalated and a new peace process started. One way or another, this could be a defining moment of our time.