P.K. Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 13 hours ago, HeliX said: 1948 was a grave injustice. I don't think any reasonable person can disagree with that. It's important because if you want peace then there has to be some remediation for what happened. @HeliX Well, I suggest you write to the UN pdq and ask them to say sorry for their partition of the area known as "Palestine" and what are they going to do about the sorry situation that has since evolved...? How very typical. You keep bleating on about how badly the "Palestinians" have been treated which gives you this "Israel has brought it all on themselves" attitude. Of course, your solution to the issue - which is a single state with both Jews and "Palestinians" living cheek by jowl after decades and more importantly generations of deliberately nurtured Islamic hatred - is completely and utterly ridiculous and totally ignores the reality of the situation. I kept asking folks complaining about the airstrikes for their alternative strategy in the hope they would realise that with an insurgency buried deep in a society that is so supportive they will willingly act as human shields that there is no realistic alternative to civilian casualties. Your solution, breathtaking in it's naivity, was to assassinate the Hamas leadership living abroad! Putting aside the difficulties of actually carrying that out it's obvious that Hamas has a chain of command which will include a succession plan approved by Iran ie you haven't really thought this through have you...? Or more likely you don't want to admit that what is happening on the ground is sadly the only way to get rid of Hamas. And they need to be got rid of. If you really want solutions my personal view is that the Gaza Strip is a road to nowhere. If you can imagine over 2 million plus people crammed onto the IOM in the area North of the A1 then it puts it in perspective. Basically Gaza is totally unsustainable which is why over 80% of the inhabitants rely totally on foreign aid. It's the same in all the other refugee camps. A burgeoning population of stateless people deliberately kept in limbo for political point-scoring and to remind folks in the surrounding arab states that it's their duty to hate Israel. Only a concerted effort by the Arab states can solve the "refugee" problem. Following Jordan's lead on nationality would be a good start... 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 3 hours ago, P.K. said: How very typical. You keep bleating on about how badly the "Palestinians" have been treated which gives you this "Israel has brought it all on themselves" attitude. Well not quite, the Brits carry plenty of the blame too. Quote Of course, your solution to the issue - which is a single state with both Jews and "Palestinians" living cheek by jowl after decades and more importantly generations of deliberately nurtured Islamic hatred - is completely and utterly ridiculous and totally ignores the reality of the situation. It's interesting that you ignore the hatred on the other side. But it's not really surprising that Israel killing hundreds of kids a year doesn't really endear them to the Palestinians. Quote Or more likely you don't want to admit that what is happening on the ground is sadly the only way to get rid of Hamas. Israel's current strategy will not get rid of Hamas. Quote Only a concerted effort by the Arab states can solve the "refugee" problem. Following Jordan's lead on nationality would be a good start... What makes it their responsibility to sort out a mess they didn't create? What makes it the people of Palestine's responsibility to leave their homeland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Just now, HeliX said: Well not quite, the Brits carry plenty of the blame too. It's interesting that you ignore the hatred on the other side. But it's not really surprising that Israel killing hundreds of kids a year doesn't really endear them to the Palestinians. Israel's current strategy will not get rid of Hamas. What makes it their responsibility to sort out a mess they didn't create? What makes it the people of Palestine's responsibility to leave their homeland? Same old same old. No solutions just more hand-wringing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 8 minutes ago, P.K. said: Same old same old. No solutions just more hand-wringing... I've posted what I think is the path to peace in both this thread and the other several times. You don't agree or like it, which is fine, but to claim I've not done it is a bit daft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 56 minutes ago, HeliX said: What makes it their responsibility to sort out a mess they didn't create? Mind blowing blindness. Yeah cos Arab states didn't try to wipe Israel off the map in 1948 etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Mind blowing blindness. Yeah cos Arab states didn't try to wipe Israel off the map in 1948 etc. Which was after Zionists started creating Palestinian refugees. If the roles were reversed most of the West would find it abhorrent that Jews were expected to leave their homeland due to an illegal occupation. But if it's arabs it's fine apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barlow Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 I feel your grip of matters outside of the Isle of Man is severely lacking a sense of reality and proportion, despite your eloquence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Barlow said: I feel your grip of matters outside of the Isle of Man is severely lacking a sense of reality and proportion, despite your eloquence. How dare you allege I know anything about the Isle of Man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josem Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 48 minutes ago, HeliX said: If the roles were reversed most of the West would find it abhorrent that Jews were expected to leave their homeland due to an illegal occupation. Of course the expulsion of almost all the Jews from their homes in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and Algeria was abhorrent. I don't think the more recent forced expulsion of the Jews from Gaza and the West Bank areas was abhorrent, but was yet another price paid by Israel for a (failed!) attempt at peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Josem said: Of course the expulsion of almost all the Jews from their homes in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and Algeria was abhorrent. It was. As was the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes during the Nakba, and since. And the expectation from some that they should now leave Gaza & the West Bank entirely and for some reason surrounding countries should house them. Edited December 11, 2023 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 HeliX, After Israel was established which areas were basically totally ethnically cleansed and which had mixed communities? And as people have already said don't just include Palestine and Israel include the whole Arab world in your assessment. I really find it interesting. You seem to be portraying 1948 as an entirely one sided event of Israeli aggression. Are you really sure about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 21 minutes ago, Chinahand said: HeliX, After Israel was established which areas were basically totally ethnically cleansed and which had mixed communities? And as people have already said don't just include Palestine and Israel include the whole Arab world in your assessment. I really find it interesting. You seem to be portraying 1948 as an entirely one sided event of Israeli aggression. Are you really sure about that. Forgive me for linking one of my own posts, but here was my more longform thoughts on 1948... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 @HeliX Oh dear, playing the "war crimes" card again. Run out of fresh ideas then...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 23 minutes ago, P.K. said: @HeliX Oh dear, playing the "war crimes" card again. Run out of fresh ideas then...? No, I was linking an old post that happened to have that reply to you at the start. Don't hyperventilate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josem Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 5 hours ago, HeliX said: As was the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes during the Nakba, and since. You reveal yourself as either a bigot or an ignoramus when you use such phrases. Calling the UN partition resolution establishing Israel a Nakba ("catastrophe") comes from the extremist pan-Arabic nationalists who wanted to establish one unified Arabic state: from Syria to Egypt. For such people, it was a catastrophe that Jews were allowed to live in the land of the Arabs. Allowing Jews to live in the Middle East is not a catastrophe. Alongside the establishment of an independent India, allowing one little Jewish nation to exist is one of the great post-colonial triumphs of the 20th century. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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