Rally for a free Palestine

[Shake me up Judy]

19 minutes ago, code99 said:

I beg to disagree.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0gjffbz/the-australian-wars

That's a great link. Thanks. I'll enjoy watching that. I doubt I'll change my mind though. 

[thommo2010]

Can people from both sides of the argument just agree that both sides haven't really acted in the best way over the last couple of thousand years and the likelihood of any peace is slim to none? just seems to be the same arguments going round in circles

[Shake me up Judy]

8 minutes ago, code99 said:

I understand your perspective. It is academic, detached and very general. I cannot imagine that anyone who was caught up in a large existential crisis would ever see their world that way, e.g., the people who endured hunger through the Irish famine, or the Holocaust, or the wars in Ukraine and Gaza, etc, etc.  

I do agree though that the concept of ‘union’ is a good one – the UK should have stayed in the EU.

That's my main point though. At some point in history, almost every people and country has gone through their own existential crisis. That's why I generalised from the specific.

[HeliX]

16 minutes ago, thommo2010 said:

Can people from both sides of the argument just agree that both sides haven't really acted in the best way over the last couple of thousand years and the likelihood of any peace is slim to none? just seems to be the same arguments going round in circles

But does that mean everyone should be silent when Israel is killing a bunch of people again?

[The Bastard]

24 minutes ago, HeliX said:

But does that mean everyone should be silent when Israel is killing a bunch of people again?

Worth having a look at this article.

Israeli Tech billionaire who opened a design centre in Gaza, funded a hospital there and created jobs in Gaza and the West Bank, whose youngest daughter and her partner were murdered in the Hamas attacks on the Supernova music festival. Even despite this, he says :

"And we need to stop killing each other and find a way to live together. I have been working for two-and-half decades trying to make peace."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67679634

I think that's a reasonable example for you. You don't have skin in the game, you aren't mourning a dead daughter and her partner, and the future that disappeared with them, yet you are still determined that there is a "right" side and want to perpetuate the conflict.

[HeliX]

12 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

Worth having a look at this article.

Israeli Tech billionaire who opened a design centre in Gaza, funded a hospital there and created jobs in Gaza and the West Bank, whose youngest daughter and her partner were murdered in the Hamas attacks on the Supernova music festival. Even despite this, he says :

"And we need to stop killing each other and find a way to live together. I have been working for two-and-half decades trying to make peace."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67679634

I think that's a reasonable example for you. You don't have skin in the game, you aren't mourning a dead daughter and her partner, and the future that disappeared with them, yet you are still determined that there is a "right" side and want to perpetuate the conflict.

The "right" side is for killing to stop. I focus on Israel because they're doing more of it and they're not being condemned by the west for doing it, and they're supposed to be a world government. Obviously it's bad when Hamas do it too. But my Government does not back Hamas...

[The Bastard]

1 minute ago, HeliX said:

 Obviously it's bad when Hamas do it too.

Do you think ? Not trivialising it at all ?

[HeliX]

28 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

Do you think ? Not trivialising it at all ?

What do you want me to say that hasn't been said to death? Hamas' actions on 7th Oct were an atrocity, there's no other word for it. But everyone(*) already agrees with that, there's no point drawing it out. 

*Yeah yeah there are some fringe lunatics like in everything else.

[P.K.]

45 minutes ago, HeliX said:

The "right" side is for killing to stop. I focus on Israel because they're doing more of it and they're not being condemned by the west for doing it, and they're supposed to be a world government. Obviously it's bad when Hamas do it too. But my Government does not back Hamas...

@HeliX

Why is it that you just can't grasp the fact that tactically what the IDF are doing is the only way to eliminate Hamas...?

OK General, you have the floor.

And your Masterplan is...?

[HeliX]

23 minutes ago, P.K. said:

@HeliX

Why is it that you just can't grasp the fact that tactically what the IDF are doing is the only way to eliminate Hamas...?

OK General, you have the floor.

And your Masterplan is...?

As I have said umpteen times, their current strategy will not eliminate Hamas unless they kill every Palestinian. Which I suspect you'd see as absolutely fine.

[P.K.]

@HeliX

Suspect any old bollox you like...!

Their current strategy will remove Hamas from running Gaza as a fiefdom and should stop foreign aid from enriching the Hamas upper echelon and spending it where it's needed - like on a rebuilding program.

The strategy is also going to kill as many of the Hamas vermin as possible. I noticed some of the holy warriors are surrendering. Israel still has the death penalty for treason, genocide, crimes against humanity and crimes against the Jewish people during wartime. Let's hope it applies to the Islamic Resistance Fighters.

Now Napolean, back to the question, what is your Masterplan to kill as many of the Hamas vermin as possible...?

Edited December 12, 2023 by P.K.

[HeliX]

4 minutes ago, P.K. said:

@HeliX

Suspect any old bollox you like...!

Their current strategy will remove Hamas from running Gaza as a fiefdom and should stop foreign aid from enriching the Hamas upper echelon and spending it where it's needed - like on a rebuilding program.

The strategy is also going to kill as many of the Hamas vermin as possible. I noticed some of the holy warriors are surrendering. Israel still has the death penalty for treason, genocide, crimes against humanity and crimes against the Jewish people during wartime. Let's hope it applies to the Islamic Resistance Fighters.

Now Napolean, back to the question, what is your Masterplan to kill as many of the Hamas vermin as possible...?

The current strategy will create more extremists than it kills. It's also killing exponentially more civilians than extremists.

Why would Israeli laws apply?

Israel has confirmed since initially releasing that photo of the "surrendered terrorists" (a war crime, by the way) that 85-90% were actually civilians.

I can't be arsed linking my same post again about what action I think Israel should be pursuing because you haven't read it the other half dozen times and will continue to ask the same questions anyway.

[Roger Mexico]

11 hours ago, The Bastard said:

Where did I mention Wales in the statement ?

You didn't but the high level census figures being quoted were for England and Wales (because the Census covers both) as in the linked ONS document.  I couldn't find an England-only figure and of course Wales is much smaller in comparison, so even if there wasn't a single Muslim in all of Wales it wouldn't increase the percentage in England to nearly 10%.  And I certainly wasn't going to go downloading ONS datasets and doing my own analysis at that time in the morning.

But because I am I kind person, I have now done exactly that and I reckon the figures for England only are:

As you can see removing Wales doesn't make much difference, it only increases from 6.5% to 6.7%.

[The Bastard]

2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

You didn't but the high level census figures being quoted were for England and Wales (because the Census covers both) as in the linked ONS document.  I couldn't find an England-only figure and of course Wales is much smaller in comparison, so even if there wasn't a single Muslim in all of Wales it wouldn't increase the percentage in England to nearly 10%.  And I certainly wasn't going to go downloading ONS datasets and doing my own analysis at that time in the morning.

But because I am I kind person, I have now done exactly that and I reckon the figures for England only are:

As you can see removing Wales doesn't make much difference, it only increases from 6.5% to 6.7%.

You're going a bit autistic there. You think a broad generalisation about percentages deserves a long drawn-out waffle about numbers, ignoring the point that was being made about immigration and cultural assimilation ? Whatever the numbers, whether it's 7% or 10%, the argument still stands. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by The Bastard

[The Bastard]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

Their current strategy will remove Hamas from running Gaza as a fiefdom and should stop foreign aid from enriching the Hamas upper echelon and spending it where it's needed - like on a rebuilding program.

That's summarising a lot of international concern - that Hamas aren't in power purely through democratic consent, they're a self-appointed military junta historically funded by Iran and the Gulf states, and acting as their proxy. Their stated aim is the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamist state over the whole region. They are primarily a military-focused organisation that's in control of a civilian population. 

Whilst Gaza has struggled with the political situation, and with the economic situation for its citizens, Hamas has redirected funding into military projects. The IDF estimate that it spent somewhere between 30 and 90 million dollars on military tunnelling alone, including pouring 600,000 tonnes of concrete in the process.

There are major concerns about fundamentalism under Hamas rule. Whilst some advocate a progressive Turkish model,  senior elements in Hamas have encouraged the subjugation of women in their territory, some senior figures advocating Islamic dress. Women have been banned from sports events. Religious figures such as Akrameh Sabri have imposed restrictions on the playing of music. In response, poet Mahmoud Darwish said "There are Taliban-type elements in our society, and this is a very dangerous sign".  These elements have a history of burning down bookstores and media stores for supposed "heresy".

Hamas just isn't fit to govern whilst it pursues a racist, fundamentalist agenda as its primary focus. The problem is, a military junta is not removable by any other force than people power, or military force.