Andy Onchan Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 19 hours ago, Stu Peters said: In some cases the information is readily to hand, but in others I don't think it's that easy - just based on some of the 'anonymised' requests that I see as a DOI member. Questions in multiple parts going back sometimes many years. Someone has to find the information, collate it, someone else has to check that it's not sensitive, etc. So one FOI can tie up a number of staff for hours or days - and is (along with all the other bureaucratic processes we all insist on) probably one of the reasons we have such a bloated public sector. I have no problem with appropriate transparency, but some people use them as a perverse hobby with no regard to the cost or consequences. If I had a sufficient grievance £250 (or any other reasonable amount) wouldn't stop me submitting a request, but it might stop some of the more frivolous applicants. Do you get to see who by name and address is requiring the information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Peters Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
code99 Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 14 hours ago, Gladys said: So, nothing like the FOI route. The two should not be conflated. In principle, I totally agree with FOI. In practice, it does seem to be a route that is used inexpertly, as you have pointed out with many FOI questions, that ties up time and resource with little tangible outcome. A silly example would be a FOI to discover how many times the Downing Street cat licked its arse. Yes, there is a cat there, and yes, it does what cats do, but that data has not been captured. But someone will have had to look to check whether the cat is there and what data is held about it. If someone raises a FOI request about Downing Street’s cats, my view is that person likely to be suffering from some kind of mental inclemency, and probably needs to be helped and pitied (or should I say ‘kitty-ed’, it is well known that lonely people make 999 calls about trivia matters). I believe that the terms of the Government’s loan to the Steam Packet should be reviewed in public domain. The terms may be ’commercial’, but what does commercial mean? One thing that is clear is that there is a ‘commercial’ risk that if the Steam Packet is not run profitably, then they may not be able to repay the loan (provided by the Treasury) on the agreed terms. The FOI systems work reasonably well in other democratic jurisdictions including Australia, New Zealand, Canada and even the UK. If they can cope, surely, we can cope too (with some 8,000+ civil servants…). The FOI request process could be tightened, e.g., restrict to issues which are ‘in public interest’. A possible problem is that the IOM CS/PS do not have required professional skills and sufficiently good IT systems to deal with issues...to-date no one can say with any certainty how much the Douglas Prom project cost. IMHO, the doing ‘quiet politics in private’ malarkey is one of the reasons the IOMG is sitting on £200+ unauthorised MEA loans, has allowed inept Airport landing-lights, has allowed the Liverpool Landing Stage to run miles over budget and might possibly be logistically unsuitable, has purchased a new ferry that may be inappropriate for Island’s future needs, etc, etc. If these projects were handled more ‘out in the open’, then it is likely that less financial damage would have been done before the problems got noticed and rectified. Can a well-administered FOI system benefit a small country like ours? Yes, I hope that if managed properly, it can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two-lane Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, code99 said: The FOI request process could be tightened, e.g., restrict to issues which are ‘in public interest’. I think the system should already be able to handle this: "Your request may be refused in the following circumstances: ---- The authority believes your request is vexatious, malicious, frivolous, misconceived or lacking in substance. --- " .... but you need a lawyer to define the word "frivolous". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 6 minutes ago, Two-lane said: I think the system should already be able to handle this: "Your request may be refused in the following circumstances: ---- The authority believes your request is vexatious, malicious, frivolous, misconceived or lacking in substance. --- " .... but you need a lawyer to define the word "frivolous". Start with the dictionary definition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 42 minutes ago, code99 said: The FOI request process could be tightened, e.g., restrict to issues which are ‘in public interest’. You're in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater with a response like that. That would give too much power to politicians and beurocrats and undermine the purpose of the act. The definition of 'what is in the public interest' depends on who you ask. Seemingly innocent questions have uncovered major scandals in the UK before. Unfortunately you can't legislate against idiots...but that doesn't mean their actions should be allowed to undermine us all, simply because the people we ask the questions of find their actions 'inconvenient'. . 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
display name Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 On 12/16/2023 at 3:11 PM, Two-lane said: You think that money is the solution. How much are you paid? How does your salary compare to the average man-in-street? How much do you pay for parking? How much do other countries charge for FoI requests? Many other countries have FoI systems. If they have this problem, how do they solve it? If they do not have this problem, why not? For £71,000 per year I expect a lot more from you, rather than for you to blurt out the first thing that comes into you mind. Oh I'd say he's exactly what we expected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
code99 Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said: You're in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater with a response like that. That would give too much power to politicians and beurocrats and undermine the purpose of the act. The definition of 'what is in the public interest' depends on who you ask. Seemingly innocent questions have uncovered major scandals in the UK before. Unfortunately you can't legislate against idiots...but that doesn't mean their actions should be allowed to undermine us all, simply because the people we ask the questions of find their actions 'inconvenient'. . I agree. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/20/open-door-definition-public-interest and the IOMG "Our response to your request" policy: https://www.gov.im/about-the-government/freedom-of-information/our-response-to-your-request/ Edited December 17, 2023 by code99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 Problem with FOI is people like Trevor Cowin who asks so many questions that he ties up numerous staff across government dealing with his many requests lots of which are just to be as awkward as possible. A nominal fee would deter frivolous FOIs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 5 minutes ago, Banker said: Problem with FOI is people like Trevor Cowin who asks so many questions that he ties up numerous staff across government dealing with his many requests lots of which are just to be as awkward as possible. A nominal fee would deter frivolous FOIs I don't think it would deter him for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
display name Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 18 minutes ago, Banker said: A nominal fee would deter frivolous FOIs We already pay a fee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 6 minutes ago, display name said: We already pay a fee How much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred the shred Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 I did not realise there was a charge, I would not be surprised if there were a tight little group of regulars who between them made the majority of FOI s. I think they would include media personnel and people who made a hobby of having to know everything and we all know people like that. I don’t think the majority would be vexatious just curious especially if it is a free or nominal service. I used to have a neighbour who was tenacious until they knew absolutely everything about everybody just nosey beyond belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two-lane Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Fred the shred said: I did not realise there was a charge I think that there is the slightest hint of a suspicion that Display Name was being frivolous (as defined in the dictionary). I believe he was referring to Income Tax - which is also used to provide free parking for some people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
display name Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Banker said: How much? A pecuniary matter that varies according to circumstances,as I thought by your forum name you'd be fully aware of. Unless of course rhyming slang befits the epithet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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