Living hope new church

[HeteroErectus]

53 minutes ago, HiVibes said:

Well actually they tell people that they must engage in 'sacrificial giving' meaning that they should sacrifice things they had saved up for  like home improvements or a family holiday and instead give them the money, basically you get shamed /  judged for doing things which would benefit your family over the directors getting a free house / church etc even if you already tithe. Personally I think that's no different than a con man taking your life savings, but you seem cool with it.

I'm absolutely not in favour of these people or religion overall.

But, what makes a fair transaction? The same as any business, whether right or wrong, the people are satisfied with the transaction. A (perceived) fair swap of money for goods/services. 

Again I'll say, we are extorted for taxes much more severely than any church goer

Edit: for example, £90m overspend on the Liverpool landing alone ÷ 50,000 taxpayers = £1800 each!

Edited December 20, 2023 by HeteroErectus

[Primator]

14 minutes ago, HeteroErectus said:

I'm absolutely not in favour of these people or religion overall.

But, what makes a fair transaction? The same as any business, whether right or wrong, the people are satisfied with the transaction. A (perceived) fair swap of money for goods/services. 

Again I'll say, we are extorted for taxes much more severely than any church goer

Edit: for example, £90m overspend on the Liverpool landing alone ÷ 50,000 taxpayers = £1800 each!

Yes, but for their contribution the Living Hope lot get salvation and everlasting life while for our £1800 we get a tatty shed on the banks of a filthy river. 

[HeteroErectus]

1 minute ago, Primator said:

Yes, but for their contribution the Living Hope lot get salvation and everlasting life while for our £1800 we get a tatty shed on the banks of a filthy river. 

That's my point. Who is content with their transaction and who isn't? 

There are lots of happy taxpayers complaining on social media about people choosing to donate to a church. 

They choose to pay 10-15%. We are forced to pay 20%+.

[HeliX]

2 hours ago, HeteroErectus said:

That's my point. Who is content with their transaction and who isn't? 

There are lots of happy taxpayers complaining on social media about people choosing to donate to a church. 

They choose to pay 10-15%. We are forced to pay 20%+.

If an old dear gets scammed by an Indian call centre but is pleased with the service because she doesn't know they lied about the problem and lied about fixing it does that make it not a scam?

[Freggyragh]

You could say all religion is a scam — I mean how anyone has any idea if there is or isn't a god who never shows his face, or a life hereafter. The very idea of making a living out of preaching about things it is impossible to know is preposterous. On the other hand, the music, the ambiance, the fellowship, the meditative rituals and the sense of moral superiority have always appealed to some, and if they see value in it, then fair enough. And they certainly aren't all stupid. Mind you, I'm saying that because no one close to me has been caught up in a grasping, tithing church.

[mannin]

Like many folks, I'm not a fan of this (or any other) church/religion. That said I have adopted a live and let live view. 

This particular lot do seem to be on the upper part of the the scam/culty/crazy scale, but I do know a few of their lot, most of whom I had previously believed were much lower on the gullible spectrum. 

Personally I would give this lot a wide berth, but they do appear to look after their own as well as offer the type of faux care and support that those indoctrinated into religion are looking for. 

Other than fleecing their sect are this lot any better or worse than the others? Even with their current wave of extortion  tithing they have an awfully long way to go before they are worth the estimated $12 billion that the Church of England are worth or the $200 billion that the mormons are worth.

They do seem to be spending over the odds (~£500k) on the site, so hopefully the local economy may benefit, even if the congregation may not. 

All religions are really about money and control, this lot do seem to be a little more open about that than many others.  

[Max Power]

13 hours ago, HiVibes said:

Well actually they tell people that they must engage in 'sacrificial giving' meaning that they should sacrifice things they had saved up for  like home improvements or a family holiday and instead give them the money, basically you get shamed /  judged for doing things which would benefit your family over the directors getting a free house / church etc even if you already tithe. Personally I think that's no different than a con man taking your life savings, but you seem cool with it.

Surely this amounts to obtaining money through menaces? 

If this is the case then perhaps there should be an investigation, but trying to get people to admit that they are being pressed into parting with cash may be difficult. They would probably be scared of eternal damnation or being shunned by their community?

It does highlight the problems of the Church in general, the Catholic faith seems to always come up with funds, as do others, the Protestants seem to rely on investments but are closing chapels and churches everywhere. I believe that it's because there doesn't appear to be the threat of eternal damnation and Prods have become complacent with the meekness of their faith? 

[Passing Time]

14 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

You could say all religion is a scam — I mean how anyone has any idea if there is or isn't a god who never shows his face, or a life hereafter. The very idea of making a living out of preaching about things it is impossible to know is preposterous. On the other hand, the music, the ambiance, the fellowship, the meditative rituals and the sense of moral superiority have always appealed to some, and if they see value in it, then fair enough. And they certainly aren't all stupid. Mind you, I'm saying that because no one close to me has been caught up in a grasping, tithing church.

Best not let Santa read this

[Two-lane]

5 hours ago, Max Power said:

Surely this amounts to obtaining money through menaces? 

What about the religions that threaten you in the afterlife - do something good and you are rewarded with 72 wives.

No thanks, I'm going to try and stay alive as long as possible.

 

[HiVibes]

20 hours ago, Max Power said:

Surely this amounts to obtaining money through menaces? 

Just good sales technique, a bit like being sold a car you can't really afford.

[jackwhite]

Banker bashing the bishop again. 

[mad_manx]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:26 AM, HeteroErectus said:

That's my point. Who is content with their transaction and who isn't? 

There are lots of happy taxpayers complaining on social media about people choosing to donate to a church. 

They choose to pay 10-15%. We are forced to pay 20%+.

Not really a choice in some cases.  There is peer pressure to  donate.

 

[Fred the shred]

The Church of England is not far behind believe me always asking for more money from the faithful few, writing personal letters to the congregation, everyone encouraged to have standing orders and ever so often asked to increase them.   No wonder the churches are half empty.    The Bishop should be getting a recruitment campaign going instead of interfering in political affairs the church is dying on its feet.

 

 

[La_Dolce_Vita]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:12 PM, CrazyDave said:

Exactly.  Nobody is forced or hoodwinked into donating for this they know exactly what they donated to.

Its not my thing at all,  it the people I know who are involved are successful business types who could probably drop a six figure sum into this without noticing.  I don’t see an issue despite some very strange people making very strange comments on the social media news sites about people being “duped” etc.

Doesn’t harm me. Creates work for local businesses and turns an ugly and empty building into something useful and more attractive.

Win win

I think it does harm to have your point of view, which is a point of view shared by very many people, unfortunately.  It is this view that it is ok for people to have irrational beliefs. 

It's not ok because it really does matter for us as individuals or as a society as to what is true or not.

I genuinely think that because these sort of beliefs have the Christian label on them then people mistakenly think that they arent that bad and that's again because of the mistaken view that Christianity is moral and (somehow) has some credibility.

It's not good to have irrational beliefs because the poor thinking behind having them naturally becomes a pattern of poor thinking that is used for all sorts of things. This applies to homeopathy, ghosts, horoscopes, gambling luck and all sorts of things, as common examples.

But religion is particularly bad because people are doing things in their life based on stupid thinking.  What a fucking waste. Even the thoughts they give to their fictional God are a waste of time.  And if they think they are going to a better place then it only diminishes the value of this life.

The problem is these people are convinced (for bad reasons) about their God and what they should do. They don't really have easy choices or choices at all when it comes to tithing because it is expected if themselves or they're expectations from others. 

This particular church is even more harmful to plain old CofE nonsense because this sort of neo-charismatic nonsense includes irrational, supernatural stuff like the laying on of hands to heal. They also seem to talk of Jesus even more so as something alive and tangible, which is certainly not good for mental health in believing you have an invisible friend.

 

 

[Mercenary]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:22 PM, Fred the shred said:

The Church of England is not far behind believe me always asking for more money from the faithful few, writing personal letters to the congregation, everyone encouraged to have standing orders and ever so often asked to increase them.   No wonder the churches are half empty.    The Bishop should be getting a recruitment campaign going instead of interfering in political affairs the church is dying on its feet.

 

 

Well if you're sat in a big church with a big roof and a big heating bill what do you expect? Unless some church starts remote worship by Teams the donations need to increase to offset dwindling numbers