Living hope new church

[La_Dolce_Vita]

6 hours ago, The Phantom said:

Religion was created for two main reasons.  

1) To get groups of people to work towards a common purpose.

2) To provide reasons and answers to stuff people don't understand. 

Nowadays to replace this, we have 

1) The limited liability company

2) Science (and Google). 

 

I think the starting point isn't about common purpose but rather a inclination to attribute sentience to the occurrence and manifestation of (powerful) natural phenomena. And this idea of sentience behind things has generally led to them being seen as Gods and having anthropomorphic qualities.

I would assume that with the idea of there being beings that control and act in the world then follows the ideas people come to have of what these beings want, need or desire, e.g. how to placate them or keep them on their good side.  And the other side to that is the assumption that if they control such powerful things then they must be so powerful to need worship. Possibly the hierarchical structure in human communities and societies bolsters this idea of something or some things that are at the apex. 

Once people start adding values and character to these magical creatures then you start getting into religions being formed.

I think it's more of an aspect of our humanity in being prone to thinking about things poorly and then also to resist better thinking.

But even in our society, we haven't yet got to a stage where we treat irrational beliefs with ridicule and rejection. 

I hope the bit about the limited liability company is entirely a joke.

Edited December 28, 2023 by La_Dolce_Vita

[The Phantom]

19 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

I think the starting point isn't about common purpose but rather a inclination to attribute sentience to the occurrence and manifestation of (powerful) natural phenomena. And this idea of sentience behind things has generally led to them being seen as Gods and having anthropomorphic qualities.

I would assume that with the idea of there being beings that control and act in the world then follows the ideas people come to have of what these beings want, need or desire, e.g. how to placate them or keep them on their good side.  And the other side to that is the assumption that if they control such powerful things then they must be so powerful to need worship. Possibly the hierarchical structure in human communities and societies bolsters this idea of something or some things that are at the apex. 

Once people start adding values and character to these magical creatures then you start getting into religions being formed.

I think it's more of an aspect of our humanity in being prone to thinking about things poorly and then also to resist better thinking.

But even in our society, we haven't yet got to a stage where we treat irrational beliefs with ridicule and rejection. 

I hope the bit about the limited liability company is entirely a joke.

Have you ever tried to get even a small group of people to work together to do something without a carrot or stick? 

People tend to instantly think that religion is the big defined, world belief systems with some sort of all knowing sentient beings in the mythology.  Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are regarded as probably the oldest.  They only really came about with the advent of agriculture and the requirement for large groups of people to live and work together to be successful. 

I'm referring to even farther back, the days of the hunter-gatherers 'natural' religions, symbolism and rituals.  From cave paintings, burials, music etc that would require some level of organisation, effort and sharing.  Even chimps drum and do 'rain dances'. 

The limited liability company sort of a joke, but feel free to insert anything similar - the non centralised global economy?  The reason for doing something that may not benefit you instantly, but will pay off in the longterm or benefit your friends and family.  But then you'd get into a whole debate about altruism and does it really exist?

Edited December 28, 2023 by The Phantom

[Freggyragh]

Organised religions first served a purpose after the beginning of agriculture and permanent settlements. Surplus food allowed a priest class to develop, and alongside it a warrior / ruler class. The priest class's primary functions was record-keeping, by developing writing systems or committing to memory information gathered concerning land management, ownership and inheritance, health and diet, and the cycle of the seasons.

The priest classes became more powerful as in time they came to be not only conduits for the gathering and dissemination of knowledge beyond the borders of any one kingdom, but controllers of marriages, divorces, inheritance, education, healthcare, diet, and public morals — which made their organisation extremely wealthy.

From this position of power, no individual, no matter how powerful, was allowed to contradict the teachings and rulings of the priests. I doubt, even a few centuries ago, if many of the worshippers really believed in the mumbo-jumbo of religion or if fear of hellfire was what got people organised to do things — I think it was the reality of not being able to  live free of the church, as well as the social kudos of supporting the church that got things done.

As trade and diplomacy developed and empires waxed and waned, the writing skills of priests, their international connections and their collective wealth became evermore important, but that all began to unravel as literacy spread and translations of the great books became available. The printing press was the first great blow against the priest class, as suddenly any literate person had access to the same information as the priests, and the means to publish their own thoughts. During the Reformation and Enlightenment different ideas spread, the priest class fractured and in most states, whilst religion continued to be important, the priest class became less so. 

During the last three or four centuries, states, science, secular entertainment, secular law courts and secular writing have all eroded the power of religion itself. There was always an element of the Emperor's New Clothes about much of the mumbo-jumbo, which could never survive free-speech and the printing press, nevermind the internet. Work has also changed — few people now work the land. Governments in the West are now mostly chosen by systems that are somewhat democratic, not by rights of inheritance, and Capital often has the final say on how we are governed, not religious leaders. 

So, here we are, almost in 2024, and we still have a Bishop in Tynwald, and a Head of State crowned by an Archbishop, both from a church with hardly any active members in the Isle of Man.

I know two members of Living Hope. Neither have invited me to join (they probably know I'm not interested) or ever said much about it. They're certainly less pushy about their beliefs than vegans, faragists, anti-vaxers, or climate sceptics. I don't see the harm in people getting together for some happy-clappy singing and a preachy sermon, and I'm not bothered that they pay for it. What annoys me is that my people paid into the C of E for five centuries, mostly not by choice, and now the church buildings they built, paid for and maintained are being sold off to pay the salaries and pensions of the very clergy that couldn't them keep going. Morally, those buildings should be vested in their communities.

 

 

[Manx Bean]

7 hours ago, kevster said:

God?

He thinks he is.

[Banker]

Expanding faster than cabinet office!

https://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/donations-to-living-hope-church-top-ps1m-for-the-first-time-723107

[Albert Tatlock]

8 minutes ago, Banker said:

Expanding faster than cabinet office!

https://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/donations-to-living-hope-church-top-ps1m-for-the-first-time-723107

Most viruses do.

[Fred the shred]

A group to keep clear of big time all smiley on the outside but money obsessed.

[La Colombe]

I guess bringing joy, comfort and meaning to so many peoples' lives must be quite expensive. 

[Gladys]

22 minutes ago, La Colombe said:

I guess bringing joy, comfort and meaning to so many peoples' lives must be quite expensive. 

It's the salvation bit that is really costly.

[Tinpot]

Does anyone have actual first hand experience of seeing this lot ruin someone’s life, or is it all based on hearsay?

I know a few members and to be honest they are normal and sane people.  Cant say they have ever tried to convert anyone or get ask anyone to become members.

[Tinpot]

3 hours ago, Tinpot said:

Does anyone have actual first hand experience of seeing this lot ruin someone’s life, or is it all based on hearsay?

I know a few members and to be honest they are normal and sane people.  Cant say they have ever tried to convert anyone or get ask anyone to become members.

Anybody?  Any actual real world examples that you have actually seen and witnessed with your own eyes and that you swear on a loved ones life as being completely factual?

There must be some for all the hate that is spouted towards them?

[Jarndyce]

25 minutes ago, Tinpot said:

There must be some for all the hate that is spouted towards them?

New here, are you?

[Ringy Rose]

41 minutes ago, Tinpot said:

Any actual real world examples that you have actually seen and witnessed with your own eyes and that you swear on a loved ones life as being completely factual?

I’ve worked with people in debt who weren’t paying their mortgage but were paying the tithe in full every month.

I’ll let others decide whether that counts as having their life ruined.

[Mr Helmut Fromage]

4 hours ago, Tinpot said:

Does anyone have actual first hand experience of seeing this lot ruin someone’s life, or is it all based on hearsay?

I know a few members and to be honest they are normal and sane people.  Cant say they have ever tried to convert anyone or get ask anyone to become members.

Take a look at the Four12 branch that Stansfield is a Director of terrible organisation - they actively promote Pray away the Gay policies - I don't think organisations that are blatantly homophobic are a positive lot.

So in answer to your question yes they try and convert people but not always in the religious was. 

[NoTail]

The Louis Group owners are/were fundamental nutters.  Not sure if they are Living Hope but certainly upset many who lost their life savings.