Living hope new church

[The Voice of Reason]

3 hours ago, The Phantom said:

In my experience Saffas are generally a lot more religious before or after leaving the Motherland.

“Saffas” ?

South Africans  I can  only imagine.

 

[Vaaish]

10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

South Africans  I can  only imagine.

 

You can only imagine South Africans??! Blimey…I can imagine Peruvians, Botswanans and Chagos Islanders. I can even imagine Mermaids and Martians! Try harder! 

[Harry Lamb]

20 hours ago, The Phantom said:

I'll raise yoh another Wiki link.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Christianity_in_the_Western_world#:~:text=Christianity%2C the largest religion in,2016 and 64% in 2022.

Yours only lists current numbers. No increase or decrease. No breakdown of region.

I'd concede possible increases in developing countries as populations grow. But overall % in developed countries are declining. 

You just need to go to any church on the Island on a Sunday. Years ago they were full. Now they are not. 

All except LH.

I accept most of that. I just think it is a mistake to extrapolate the growth of secularisation from the situation in Western Europe. This piece of research predicts only 13% worldwide identifying as having no faith by 2050  https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/12/21/key-findings-from-the-global-religious-futures-project/

We tend to live in something of a bubble, judging the rest of the world by our own standards, and not just on this subject, which I think is an interesting thing.

 

Edited October 2 by Harry Lamb

[La_Dolce_Vita]

On 10/1/2024 at 1:11 PM, The Phantom said:

You just have to look at any other Church on the Island (and probably the UK) no matter the particular branch of imaginary friend worship.  All of them are sliding into oblivion and irrelevance with falling attendance as the (western European) world becomes more and more secular. 

However one church seems to buck the trend.  Opening and taking over other churches with their unique way of doing things.  Tithes, well paid pastors, links to business and a whole demographic of recent immigrants.  Surely anyone with any kind of intelligence would smell something funny going on. 

I don't know what other Churches could expect to do, other than start making public proclamations about sheep heading in the wrong direction.  It's not really in keeping with how things are done in the UK and Isle of Man.

But I think our society makes it very easy for organisations like Living Hope to take hold.  Most people tend to hold childish beliefs that the Christian God exist, even if it's nothing more than some being existing, being the same one in the Bible, who basically loves us all and we're all going to heaven.  Or, at the very least, they believe that this some being out there ordering things.  As such, we don't live in the sort of society where such childish beliefs are open to ridicule. 

Most don't find these beliefs that shocking and embarrassing.  If we did, we would be more vocal and do more about it.  Things are kinda at their level when religious beliefs is so detached from scripture and religious practices that it is rarely expressed so there is little said about scepticism in society.  But the default position of being credulous to these sort of beliefs exists.  It takes little to exploit that and lead people, not too far, into something deeper.

 

 

[Fred the shred]

Living Hope to me seems more like a private club with religion thrown in.    It certainly demands commitment financial and otherwise the weak and vulnerable seem to be particularly attracted to it perhaps it makes them feel secure and valued and gives them a feeling of belonging.   

[La_Dolce_Vita]

It is a private club but the religion is fundamental to it.  How do you view things like the Catholic Church? Our the British Isles a couple hundred years ago where people went to church, prayed and invited new people in. That's a private club, except it's the private club just happens to include most people in many countries.  

And the people are no weaker or vulnerable than someone who you might know who goes to an anglican, methodist or baptist church or just believes in God.  They're not weak, vulnerable or even stupid.  It's just the reason for holding the belief that is stupid.  

[The Phantom]

10 hours ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

It is a private club but the religion is fundamental to it.  How do you view things like the Catholic Church? Our the British Isles a couple hundred years ago where people went to church, prayed and invited new people in. That's a private club, except it's the private club just happens to include most people in many countries.  

And the people are no weaker or vulnerable than someone who you might know who goes to an anglican, methodist or baptist church or just believes in God.  They're not weak, vulnerable or even stupid.  It's just the reason for holding the belief that is stupid.  

I think LH certainly has a better strategy and marketing team than CofE or Catholics.  They seem to be much younger and a more modern interpretation of Christianity.  The old guard seem to be stuck in middle ages.  I know a couple of people from my youth that were always traditional religious and seem to have defected to LH. 

[HiVibes]

2 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

I think LH certainly has a better strategy and marketing team than CofE or Catholics.  They seem to be much younger and a more modern interpretation of Christianity.  The old guard seem to be stuck in middle ages.  I know a couple of people from my youth that were always traditional religious and seem to have defected to LH. 

For all shitty hand in the air pop derivative sing alongs, the actual dogma of Living Hope is far more regressive than the other churches, hardly modern, you certainly won't find a woman in a position of power. 

[WTF]

1 hour ago, The Phantom said:

I think LH certainly has a better strategy and marketing team than CofE or Catholics.  They seem to be much younger and a more modern interpretation of Christianity.  The old guard seem to be stuck in middle ages.  I know a couple of people from my youth that were always traditional religious and seem to have defected to LH. 

the fire and brimstone brigade are alive and well in many guises.

[Vaaish]

I have the deepest dislike and suspicion of any organised religion, of whatever stripe. It is a vehicle for the control and coercion of the individual.

[Banker]

14 hours ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

It is a private club but the religion is fundamental to it.  How do you view things like the Catholic Church? Our the British Isles a couple hundred years ago where people went to church, prayed and invited new people in. That's a private club, except it's the private club just happens to include most people in many countries.  

And the people are no weaker or vulnerable than someone who you might know who goes to an anglican, methodist or baptist church or just believes in God.  They're not weak, vulnerable or even stupid.  It's just the reason for holding the belief that is stupid.  

The traditional churches don’t insist in a monthly payment of10% of your earnings 

[Josem]

43 minutes ago, Banker said:

The traditional churches don’t insist in a monthly payment of 10% of your earnings 

This is a really weird thing to say. Who do you think funds all the Abrahamic* religions? Contributing (financially) to the religion is a key part of each of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The Islam version is called Zakat and is probably more akin to a wealth tax than an income-based system, but I don't think that difference is material here.

In much of Europe, there are "Church taxes" which are paid through the income tax system. This system doesn't exist in the Anglo-countries (UK/US/CA/NZ/AU/etc), and instead, people give directly in various ways.

Some churches in the Isle of Man are much smaller than they used to be. Some of them own various chunks of land and rent it out to tenants. That income, in addition to contributions from congregants, helps to maintain their buildings and operations. The Christian Science Church in the Isle of Man is one like this.

 

*I don't know the equivalents for the various "Eastern" religions or others.

[The Phantom]

1 hour ago, Banker said:

The traditional churches don’t insist in a monthly payment of10% of your earnings 

Mormons do. 

31 minutes ago, Josem said:

This is a really weird thing to say. Who do you think funds all the Abrahamic* religions? Contributing (financially) to the religion is a key part of each of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The Islam version is called Zakat and is probably more akin to a wealth tax than an income-based system, but I don't think that difference is material here.

In much of Europe, there are "Church taxes" which are paid through the income tax system. This system doesn't exist in the Anglo-countries (UK/US/CA/NZ/AU/etc), and instead, people give directly in various ways.

Some churches in the Isle of Man are much smaller than they used to be. Some of them own various chunks of land and rent it out to tenants. That income, in addition to contributions from congregants, helps to maintain their buildings and operations. The Christian Science Church in the Isle of Man is one like this.

 

*I don't know the equivalents for the various "Eastern" religions or others.

We've got graveyard fees in our rates too.  

I know Ismaili Muslims pay a significant sum to the Aga Khan (hence his fabulous wealth and playboy prince antics - but also schools, hospitals etc).  Not sure if this is the same as Zakat though. 

Edited yesterday at 01:51 PM by The Phantom

[HiVibes]

1 hour ago, Banker said:

The traditional churches don’t insist in a monthly payment of10% of your earnings 

10% is the low end these days, LH push for 20% if you are a 'true believer'.

[The Phantom]

9 minutes ago, HiVibes said:

10% is the low end these days, LH push for 20% if you are a 'true believer'.

Does 20% get you heaven's 'Speedy Boarding Pass'?