Non-Believer Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 6 minutes ago, Kopek said: ....but as I say above, ypou voted for them, you effectively gave them your permission to act on your behalf and try to give you what you had indicated what you want??? If you have an idea of a system that would change this, speak now or for .......... Not fair of course, It is not for us to come up with the solutions, that is why we elect MHKs. You did vote didn't you??? Who I voted for had little to do with it. Nobody was consulted on what the actual result of the prom was. A bunch of clowns were simply allowed to run riot with no oversight. Quite simply because like all the other MHKs, they didn't know or ask enough questions about what we were getting because the current system precludes, excludes and discourages such scrutiny. #clubtynwald. Nobody tore strips out of what was going on at the time because it's not the done thing or it's not permitted. The only solution IMHO is to establish party politics to supply an effective political opposition to maintain scrutiny and focus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 The power of the CS Mandarins is ultimate, they equate big departments with huge power. It's not always a case of cutting headcount, rather cutting the number of departmental possessions. The Villa Gaiety shouldn't be run by government, nor the buses, railways and many other highly staffed organisations. By all means give them a subvention, but running the things creates a huge workforce liability. I think Alf is completely disillusioned and unable to get anything done, like his predecessors he is finding that it is a hopeless and thankless job. I'll be surprised if he stands next time around, and what will his replacement be like? Frightening isn't it! 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 (edited) 10 hours ago, asitis said: Wasn't there a historical report into the CS size that recommended cuts ? I don't recall. There was the SAVE initiative but that was sabotaged by civil servants. https://www.gov.im/news/2019/jul/04/save-progress-report-to-be-presented-to-tynwald/ Edited January 1 by Moghrey Mie 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 53 minutes ago, Non-Believer said: A bunch of clowns were Well really, that sort of description lets ypou down doesn't it? Could you not describe ypur MHKs better than a 'bunch of clowns' ? Explain why you voted for the 'Clown', better than the rest? No worse that the rest? The pencil lead broke? Really NB, you're worth better than this. What would you do??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha-acid Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 4 minutes ago, Kopek said: Well really, that sort of description lets ypou down doesn't it? Could you not describe ypur MHKs better than a 'bunch of clowns' ? Explain why you voted for the 'Clown', better than the rest? No worse that the rest? The pencil lead broke? Really NB, you're worth better than this. What would you do??? Have another pint after that nonsensical ramble and then go to sleep 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 1 hour ago, Non-Believer said: The only solution IMHO is to establish party politics AS I say above, party politics wouldn't provide any more opposition to that which we have now. 8 or so in Comin, 16 or so in opposition, collective responsibility, sensible voting from the rest of the Keys on the measure and hey presto!!!!! Same as it ever was~??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 7 minutes ago, alpha-acid said: Have another pint after that nonsensical ramble and then go to sleep I wouldn't drink your crappy beer if that were my tipple!!! 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 13 minutes ago, Kopek said: Well really, that sort of description lets ypou down doesn't it? Could you not describe ypur MHKs better than a 'bunch of clowns' ? Explain why you voted for the 'Clown', better than the rest? No worse that the rest? The pencil lead broke? Really NB, you're worth better than this. What would you do??? People voted for 'clowns' who promised to challenge and change. Naive, possibly, but the lack of party politics renders individual MHKs impotent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 16 minutes ago, Kopek said: Well really, that sort of description lets ypou down doesn't it? Could you not describe ypur MHKs better than a 'bunch of clowns' ? Explain why you voted for the 'Clown', better than the rest? No worse that the rest? The pencil lead broke? Really NB, you're worth better than this. What would you do??? You need to read the post. The bunch of clowns referred to those in DOI and elsewhere who left us with what you seem to think is excusable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 10 minutes ago, alpha-acid said: Have another pint after that nonsensical ramble and then go to sleep If you don't understand it, why respond? If it is 'nonsensicle' how are you able to respond? Have you just got back from the pub yourself? Are youfit to respond to the OPs question on ''unpopular decisions''??? Touche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 3 minutes ago, Gladys said: People voted for 'clowns' who promised to challenge and change. Naive, possibly, but the lack of party politics renders individual MHKs impotent. But they weren't regarded as 'Clowns' when they were voted for them, we hoped they would be reasonable representatives for us in the votes to come. Circumstances mean that they cannot always be an opposition when voting on the NHS or Education comes to the Keys, we would say, give the NHS 400 mil, let them provide the service we want, mop up the backlog but they see the figures and the service cuts required!!!! As I say above, it's not our job to provide solutions but just in case there is some sense there, why not try??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) ... but most of the above posts don't even try to suggest solutions. Just moaning at what 'they' voted for! Edited January 2 by Kopek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 12 minutes ago, Kopek said: ... but most of the above posts don't even try to suggest solutions. Just moaning at what 'they' voted for! Apart from suggesting party politics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josem Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 10 hours ago, Kopek said: Comin rarely lose a vote, MHKs are not bound by 'patronage' now, yet still Comin pass their legislation, with whose support? MHKs. Where would the back bench opposition come from, the MHKs who support sensible Govt policy? I think this is exactly the problem. Healthy democracies have dispersed power through different parts/branches/arms of Government Here in the Isle of Man, despite the claims of a "tricameral" parliament, we have very concentrated political power: The Executive dominates the House of Keys, and the Legislative Council (and therefore Tynwald) is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the House of Keys. The judges are appointed by the same mob, with the CM and President of Tynwald occupying two of the three positions on the selection panel of the First Deemster. Given the relatively small size of the Isle of Man community, we do not have much in the way of other institutions to provide other ideas and other feedback into our democracy. Further, the House of Keys is currently proposing to abolish the one role in the Legislative Council who is appointed independently: the Bishop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asitis Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 34 minutes ago, Josem said: I think this is exactly the problem. Healthy democracies have dispersed power through different parts/branches/arms of Government Here in the Isle of Man, despite the claims of a "tricameral" parliament, we have very concentrated political power: The Executive dominates the House of Keys, and the Legislative Council (and therefore Tynwald) is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the House of Keys. The judges are appointed by the same mob, with the CM and President of Tynwald occupying two of the three positions on the selection panel of the First Deemster. Given the relatively small size of the Isle of Man community, we do not have much in the way of other institutions to provide other ideas and other feedback into our democracy. Further, the House of Keys is currently proposing to abolish the one role in the Legislative Council who is appointed independently: the Bishop. In truth, I think we have very little political power, particularly the electorate, the real power is concentrated at the top of the Civil Service. The MHK's quickly learn to keep their heads down and nod when asked. The CS appoint who they want to fill positions of influence, not who might make waves and call out madcap profligate schemes, or who is acknowledged as being able to do the job. HR are merely a facilitator of CS personnel selection wishes, so why they need extra staff to carry out orders is beyond me. The pomp and circumstance of the house is merely a show of democracy when nothing could be further from the truth ! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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