TT 2024

[littlebushy]

Just now, Barlow said:

The guy is an utter cunt and from the old school Douglas 'hard men' who would kick the shit out of somebody because they didn'y like the look of them. Including police.

Tell us what you really think rather than sitting on the fence 🤣

[Passing Time]

6 minutes ago, Barlow said:

The guy is an utter cunt and from the old school Douglas 'hard men' who would kick the shit out of somebody because they didn'y like the look of them. Including police.

Who are you referring to?

[Barlow]

One of our resident forum boys in blue, the non anonynous one, once said he couldn't understand why he was always sneered at by this chap*. It was before his time on the Island but it is not unknown for a a policeman to have the shit kicked out of him, basically for being a policenman.

 

*although to be fair, everyone is sneered at.

[Barlow]

Just now, Passing Time said:

Who are you referring to?

I'm referring to an utter cunt. WIth a fixed sneer.

[Passing Time]

Just now, Barlow said:

I'm referring to an utter cunt. WIth a fixed sneer.

Jeez, any chance of narrowing that list down 

[Barlow]

1 minute ago, Passing Time said:

Jeez, any chance of narrowing that list down 

Yeah no problem.

How many people do you know that kicked shit out of a policeman.

[joebean]

I strongly suspect that many of the marshals who point the finger at Mr Counsell regarding the Mercer incident do so to divert attention from the real culprits; marshals who sent riders the wrong direction without authorisation and marshals who were too busy eating their sandwiches to notice, along several miles of the TT course. I realise that Counsell is not always the most pleasant of individuals but many marshals have been glad that he arrived quickly at incidents to pick up the pieces. 

Edited July 10 by joebean

[La Colombe]

13 minutes ago, joebean said:

 I realise that Counsell is not always the most pleasant of individuals but many marshals have been glad that he arrived quickly at incidents to pick up the pieces. 

Do those pieces include heads?

[cheesypeas]

4 hours ago, Barlow said:

Yeah no problem.

How many people do you know that kicked shit out of a policeman.

 

Edited July 10 by cheesypeas
Mistaken identity

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, piebaps said:

1 hour ago, Banker said:

A Marshall on Mannin line saying there was a recommendation that Counsell should have nothing to do with racing  and the marshals were starting a petition against him or something like that 

Indeed. He's referring to the 2007 inquest which you can read on judgements.im.

The coroner recommended that a number of people involved in that incident should never be involved with road racing. The coroner can however only recommend and as he didn't specifically name the people concerned then, it was all a bit pointless really.

The 2007 judgment is indeed available.  Part 1 is here:

https://www.judgments.im/content/J583.htm

and part 2 is here:

https://www.judgments.im/content/J590.htm

Michael Moyle's first recommendation was:

1. I have no power to ban or exclude those officials or marshals whose conduct I have seriously criticised. In any event, it must be that their positions are untenable and I have no doubt that they will do the decent, honourable thing and have no significant involvement in the Manx Motorcycle Club or marshalling for future events.

Whether this included Counsell or not isn't clear, though just before this Moyle comments:

The responsibility for checking that the signage was in place before racing took place lay with the three man maintenance team [Mike Dean, Fred Adlem and Sean Counsell]. Despite all their protestations that they frequently went round checking, inter alia, that the signage was there, all I can say is that I do not accept their evidence. If the signs had not been there, then I cannot imagine for one minute that the situation would have remained unknown to them. I repeat this was not one single episode of signs not being placed. Signs had not been put up at that particular location for a number of years, including for the Manx Grand Prix when the roads would be considerably less congested, and a check might well have been more easily made. As I have made clear, I do not suggest that the three witnesses were deliberately lying or seeking to mislead me. In my view it may well be that the enormity of the incident has been such that they have somehow convinced themselves what should have been the position was in fact the actual position. In other words 'wishful thinking' on their part.

and a bit later:

Her account is supported by Mr Counsell, but I regard him generally as not being a particularly credible witness.

The whole document is a damning of the casual and sometimes callous way in which the Races were organised and a call for them to be run more professionally and competently.  Moyle appeared to almost be in despair about improvements:

It is quite clear to me that members of the Manx Motorcycle Club and Senior Marshals may well have been elevated beyond the sphere of their competence. In a case like this, it is open to the Coroner to write to the relevant bodies to make suggestions to try and avoid any future similar instances. One of the problems I face of course is that Government Departments, the Club and the Marshals Association appear to be part of the problem not the solution. Who then do I write to?

Unfortunately the organisation of the Races seems to have been 'professionalised' in the usual manner by having it run by the same sort of people (sometimes the same people) in the same careless manner.  But now paying them lots of money.

[Two-lane]

I had not read that document before today. Moyle's words were to me surprisingly forthright - rather un-legal-like, perhaps. Did his words have any effect? Well, subsequently there was the Mercer accident, so maybe not.

 

[Non-Believer]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

The 2007 judgment is indeed available.  Part 1 is here:

https://www.judgments.im/content/J583.htm

and part 2 is here:

https://www.judgments.im/content/J590.htm

Michael Moyle's first recommendation was:

1. I have no power to ban or exclude those officials or marshals whose conduct I have seriously criticised. In any event, it must be that their positions are untenable and I have no doubt that they will do the decent, honourable thing and have no significant involvement in the Manx Motorcycle Club or marshalling for future events.

Whether this included Counsell or not isn't clear, though just before this Moyle comments:

The responsibility for checking that the signage was in place before racing took place lay with the three man maintenance team [Mike Dean, Fred Adlem and Sean Counsell]. Despite all their protestations that they frequently went round checking, inter alia, that the signage was there, all I can say is that I do not accept their evidence. If the signs had not been there, then I cannot imagine for one minute that the situation would have remained unknown to them. I repeat this was not one single episode of signs not being placed. Signs had not been put up at that particular location for a number of years, including for the Manx Grand Prix when the roads would be considerably less congested, and a check might well have been more easily made. As I have made clear, I do not suggest that the three witnesses were deliberately lying or seeking to mislead me. In my view it may well be that the enormity of the incident has been such that they have somehow convinced themselves what should have been the position was in fact the actual position. In other words 'wishful thinking' on their part.

and a bit later:

Her account is supported by Mr Counsell, but I regard him generally as not being a particularly credible witness.

The whole document is a damning of the casual and sometimes callous way in which the Races were organised and a call for them to be run more professionally and competently.  Moyle appeared to almost be in despair about improvements:

It is quite clear to me that members of the Manx Motorcycle Club and Senior Marshals may well have been elevated beyond the sphere of their competence. In a case like this, it is open to the Coroner to write to the relevant bodies to make suggestions to try and avoid any future similar instances. One of the problems I face of course is that Government Departments, the Club and the Marshals Association appear to be part of the problem not the solution. Who then do I write to?

Unfortunately the organisation of the Races seems to have been 'professionalised' in the usual manner by having it run by the same sort of people (sometimes the same people) in the same careless manner.  But now paying them lots of money.

The Manx Govt "Establishment" doing what it does best, regardless of the subject area.

Circle the wagons, brush away, refute and/or ignore any adverse findings or criticism whilst displaying indignation.

And award pay rises.

[Roger Mexico]

50 minutes ago, Two-lane said:

I had not read that document before today. Moyle's words were to me surprisingly forthright - rather un-legal-like, perhaps. Did his words have any effect? Well, subsequently there was the Mercer accident, so maybe not.

I think Inquest judgments can sometimes be a bit blunter than others, perhaps because the Coroner may be addressing the bereaved directly (rather than other lawyers) and  partly because they are literally matters of life and death. 

As to changes, well the ACU officially took over in 2008, but whether much else has changed, rather than increased payments to the 'professionals' is a matter for others to judge.

It's worth saying that, no matter what you think of Counsell, he may still be entitled to compensation from an incident which he may not have had responsibility for.  And we are all still entitled to know what happened so we can judge whether sufficient has been done to lessen the risk of similar incidents (not just exact copies).  Unfortunately information appears to be withheld and this may continue if Counsell is quietly paid off.

[Barlow]

You're right of course Mr Mexico,

I don't think police (or indeed anyone else) were entitled to compensation back in the day. And certainly not the sums talked about now.

Perspective.

Irony.

[Gizo]

2 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

And award pay rises.

and then pay costs