TT 2024

[Derek Flint]

TT 2007 was a watershed. Up to that point it was a remarkably unsophisticated event. It took a few muddled years after to start to get it's act together but things did change. At one point the TM's didn't have on board comms!

The Mercer incident was another watershed. I described it at the time as a catastrophic systems failure. Sean had every right to expect a free run to the incident that he was attending with the police on board. 

Whatever ones opinion of the chap, he was a victim that day. I'm not surprised he has ended up with psychological issues.

[Hairy Poppins]

29 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

TT 2007 was a watershed. Up to that point it was a remarkably unsophisticated event. It took a few muddled years after to start to get it's act together but things did change. At one point the TM's didn't have on board comms!

The Mercer incident was another watershed. I described it at the time as a catastrophic systems failure. Sean had every right to expect a free run to the incident that he was attending with the police on board. 

Whatever ones opinion of the chap, he was a victim that day. I'm not surprised he has ended up with psychological issues.

Has it really changed that much? 

There are still elements of it that are am amateurish shit show.

 

 

[Derek Flint]

5 minutes ago, Hairy Poppins said:

Has it really changed that much? 

There are still elements of it that are am amateurish shit show.

 

 

It has, but it was coming from a very low bar

[La Colombe]

43 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

TT 2007 was a watershed.

43 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

The Mercer incident was another watershed.

The David Jeffries crash was another one. Oh, and Gus Scott. I can think of others. For watershed moments we do seem to keep having them. 

[Albert Tatlock]

5 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

The 2007 judgment is indeed available.  Part 1 is here:

https://www.judgments.im/content/J583.htm

There seems to be a dearth of notable inquests on that site.

[TheTeapot]

52 minutes ago, La Colombe said:

The David Jeffries crash was another one. Oh, and Gus Scott. I can think of others. For watershed moments we do seem to keep having them. 

Edit - ignore me, the one I was thinking of was Gus Scott

Edited July 10 by TheTeapot

[2112]

3 hours ago, Gizo said:

and then pay costs

Many have failed to add, that often used saying but never ever adhere to …….. lessons will be learned. 

[joebean]

15 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

The 2007 judgment is indeed available.  Part 1 is here:

https://www.judgments.im/content/J583.htm

and part 2 is here:

https://www.judgments.im/content/J590.htm

Michael Moyle's first recommendation was:

1. I have no power to ban or exclude those officials or marshals whose conduct I have seriously criticised. In any event, it must be that their positions are untenable and I have no doubt that they will do the decent, honourable thing and have no significant involvement in the Manx Motorcycle Club or marshalling for future events.

Whether this included Counsell or not isn't clear, though just before this Moyle comments:

The responsibility for checking that the signage was in place before racing took place lay with the three man maintenance team [Mike Dean, Fred Adlem and Sean Counsell]. Despite all their protestations that they frequently went round checking, inter alia, that the signage was there, all I can say is that I do not accept their evidence. If the signs had not been there, then I cannot imagine for one minute that the situation would have remained unknown to them. I repeat this was not one single episode of signs not being placed. Signs had not been put up at that particular location for a number of years, including for the Manx Grand Prix when the roads would be considerably less congested, and a check might well have been more easily made. As I have made clear, I do not suggest that the three witnesses were deliberately lying or seeking to mislead me. In my view it may well be that the enormity of the incident has been such that they have somehow convinced themselves what should have been the position was in fact the actual position. In other words 'wishful thinking' on their part.

and a bit later:

Her account is supported by Mr Counsell, but I regard him generally as not being a particularly credible witness.

The whole document is a damning of the casual and sometimes callous way in which the Races were organised and a call for them to be run more professionally and competently.  Moyle appeared to almost be in despair about improvements:

It is quite clear to me that members of the Manx Motorcycle Club and Senior Marshals may well have been elevated beyond the sphere of their competence. In a case like this, it is open to the Coroner to write to the relevant bodies to make suggestions to try and avoid any future similar instances. One of the problems I face of course is that Government Departments, the Club and the Marshals Association appear to be part of the problem not the solution. Who then do I write to?

Unfortunately the organisation of the Races seems to have been 'professionalised' in the usual manner by having it run by the same sort of people (sometimes the same people) in the same careless manner.  But now paying them lots of money.

In fact, a great deal happened, if not immediately then soon after. The organisation of the races became more professional and centred on risk management. The current CoC was more focussed on preventing additional danger to participants. However, road races are not science and so many variables will exist that it will, inevitably involve some learning from experience. My reading of the Mercer incident is that the procedures that were in place for sending riders in the wrong direction on the course were considered sufficient, but did not take into account multiple human error. As I understand it, the response to the learning from that is fitting GPS tracking to every bike, I assume at considerable expense, to mitigate human error on the ground. To suggest nothing has happened since 2008 except people lining their pockets is facile in the extreme. 

[Max Power]

17 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

TT 2007 was a watershed. Up to that point it was a remarkably unsophisticated event. It took a few muddled years after to start to get it's act together but things did change. At one point the TM's didn't have on board comms!

The Mercer incident was another watershed. I described it at the time as a catastrophic systems failure. Sean had every right to expect a free run to the incident that he was attending with the police on board. 

Whatever ones opinion of the chap, he was a victim that day. I'm not surprised he has ended up with psychological issues.

The TMs have always had comms, technology has progressed to allow comma while riding, this can be a distraction if they are negotiating a tricky section and someone is calling you! You see the same thing in F1 all the time where drivers tell their team to shut up!

Ticking boxes doesn’t make things safer, it just gives a veneer of security. Training, training and training is the only way to achieve that security!

At one time, red flagging a race was only in the case of extreme danger to following riders or to spectators. It was very seldom that experienced marshals and officials saw any real need to stop a race. Now it’s a matter of throwing the red flag almost at any hint of a problem. What I’m probably saying is that, whilst the event has undoubtedly become more professional, the experience is slowly disappearing, which makes training more important than ever before.

[On The Level]

18 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

TT 2007 was a watershed. Up to that point it was a remarkably unsophisticated event. It took a few muddled years after to start to get it's act together but things did change. At one point the TM's didn't have on board comms!

The Mercer incident was another watershed. I described it at the time as a catastrophic systems failure. Sean had every right to expect a free run to the incident that he was attending with the police on board. 

Whatever ones opinion of the chap, he was a victim that day. I'm not surprised he has ended up with psychological issues.

I'm sorry Derek but Counsell had no business driving at that speed when the rider originally involved had already died. He did so solely for his own excitement and therefore must bear at least some responsibility. The thought of him receiving any monetary compensation is galling.

[Max Power]

1 hour ago, On The Level said:

I'm sorry Derek but Counsell had no business driving at that speed when the rider originally involved had already died. He did so solely for his own excitement and therefore must bear at least some responsibility. The thought of him receiving any monetary compensation is galling.

He had two police officers in the car, you don’t know what speed he was travelling at. He was proceeding in the belief that the road was clear.

[Gladys]

3 minutes ago, Max Power said:

He had two police officers in the car, you don’t know what speed he was travelling at. He was proceeding in the belief that the road was clear.

Has he had training in emergency vehicle driving?  Does having two police officers in the car change anything?  They are not in control of the vehicle.  

[On The Level]

1 minute ago, Max Power said:

He had two police officers in the car, you don’t know what speed he was travelling at. He was proceeding in the belief that the road was clear.

I've personally witnessed him driving when there was NO incident, simply 'course inspecting' so i don't think it's too much of a leap to presume he was driving in similar, or even faster, manner. Whether there was belief the road was clear or not, he should have been able to stop safely for whatever reason.

[Roger Mexico]

As usual with these case, everyone is busy announcing that someone is guilty or totally absolved on the grounds of considering them a complete dickhead or one of their mates respectively.  But we don't know what the circumstances were what the behaviour and instructions were.  And we won't because the ACU refuse to release its report on rather flimsy grounds, especially as they have now settled with Mercer.

[paswt]

8 hours ago, joebean said:

In fact, a great deal happened, if not immediately then soon after. The organisation of the races became more professional and centred on risk management. The current CoC was more focussed on preventing additional danger to participants. However, road races are not science and so many variables will exist that it will, inevitably involve some learning from experience. My reading of the Mercer incident is that the procedures that were in place for sending riders in the wrong direction on the course were considered sufficient, but did not take into account multiple human error. As I understand it, the response to the learning from that is fitting GPS tracking to every bike, I assume at considerable expense, to mitigate human error on the ground. To suggest nothing has happened since 2008 except people lining their pockets is facile in the extreme. 

"The CoC is more focussed preventing additional damage to participants " ?

It would be a start to prevent initial damage to riders , eg @ "Casey's" by installing a hay bale (or its modern equivalent ) or two . There have been 5 "offs" there (sadly 2 fatal) when I marshalled there , the initial point of impact was the top of the culvert in the gully adjacent to the curb, the second  the remains of said culvert and rubble .

Despite pleas from myself and other marshals the CoC maintains there is no problem . The situation is now far worse as the gully was initially filled in with granite boulders but subsequently the gully was reinstated and the granite rock thoughtfully pressed into the earth banking to present more of a hazard !! you really couldn't make it up😒

At Black Hut riders 3 of the 8 riders who had "offs" sustained severe lower leg trauma as a result of contact with the low wall . Marshals opined that boarding fixed to the wall would give riders who came into contact with it would stand a better chance . ..... No response from the CoC.

 It would be interesting to learn the remuneration of those involved over the years before I would make accusations about "lining pockets" , perhaps you could provide that information to demonstrate how 'facile' that accusation is ?