Gizo Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 The current coc has much blood on his hands. Nothing to see here though. Drinks all ‘round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 23 minutes ago, On The Level said: I've personally witnessed him driving when there was NO incident, simply 'course inspecting' so i don't think it's too much of a leap to presume he was driving in similar, or even faster, manner. Whether there was belief the road was clear or not, he should have been able to stop safely for whatever reason. maybe 20mph for all course cars and TM's then ? i don't think the speed the car was travelling at has been revealed but regardless the speed of the bikes that should never have been there was also a factor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gladys said: Has he had training in emergency vehicle driving? Does having two police officers in the car change anything? They are not in control of the vehicle. 1 hour ago, On The Level said: I've personally witnessed him driving when there was NO incident, simply 'course inspecting' so i don't think it's too much of a leap to presume he was driving in similar, or even faster, manner. Whether there was belief the road was clear or not, he should have been able to stop safely for whatever reason. But it’s an assumption rather than fact, having two police witnesses should have a bearing on how he was driving and a reliable opinion of it? Edited July 11 by Max Power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two-lane Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said: And we won't because the ACU refuse to release its report on rather flimsy grounds, Who is responsible for organising a report into a serious accident? In this case the ACU presumably commissioned the report, which leads to the problem of a conflict of interests. Was there an independent report? If there is an accident on a building site, surely the building company cannot be allowed to commission the only report? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizo Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 51 minutes ago, Max Power said: and a reliable opinion of it? Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A fool and his money..... Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 21 hours ago, Derek Flint said: It has, but it was coming from a very low bar I think a lot of people would like to believe that Manx history began the day they stepped off the boat, and that their influence on it has been much greater than it actually has in the meantime. The truth is the TT has always been well run. It's a dangerous event by its nature - closing nearly 40 miles of public roads to race the fastest motorbikes of the time will never be risk free, nor can every potential risk being anticipated or avoided. It's very easy to step off the boat having attended a couple of CPD's on risk, based on vague and contradictory research carried out in a completely different context by people who've never run a duck race, and to then assume that the management buzz words and ass covering techniques that you've learned make you professional and the local yokels who've been quietly running a unique event as safely as possible for the last century, mere amateurs. The truth is that safety has always been a priority for the organisers and this priority has never stopped developing, nor will it in the future. Whether this be due to new technology or in response to tragic events, this change has been a constant throughout the TT's history and calling the changes "watersheds" doesn't change that. That said it's true that some events have a greater impact on the TT than others. In my lifetime the two that spring to mind are the death of Dave Jefferies in 2003, which brought about significant changes, and perhaps the appointment of Dave Phillips who I think has played an important role in developing the event in the last 20 years. Both have made considerable advancements to safety, but I think the most important factor in safety at the event continues to be the knowledge and experience of people who have devoted years to its running, performing 'risk management " in all but name and learning from every "watershed" as it happens. I think to write them off as amateurs in favour of some buzz words and a lot more ass covering is the most dangerous thing you could possibly do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizo Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Are you local? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barlow Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 23 hours ago, Derek Flint said: Sean had every right to expect a free run to the incident that he was attending with the police on board. Nice to see you are now on first names terms. You have expressed previously how frosty, for no apparent reason, he was towards you. Amazing how a possibility of some compo can change attitudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, paswt said: "The CoC is more focussed preventing additional damage to participants " ? It would be a start to prevent initial damage to riders , eg @ "Casey's" by installing a hay bale (or its modern equivalent ) or two . There have been 5 "offs" there (sadly 2 fatal) when I marshalled there , the initial point of impact was the top of the culvert in the gully adjacent to the curb, the second the remains of said culvert and rubble . Despite pleas from myself and other marshals the CoC maintains there is no problem . The situation is now far worse as the gully was initially filled in with granite boulders but subsequently the gully was reinstated and the granite rock thoughtfully pressed into the earth banking to present more of a hazard !! you really couldn't make it up😒 At Black Hut riders 3 of the 8 riders who had "offs" sustained severe lower leg trauma as a result of contact with the low wall . Marshals opined that boarding fixed to the wall would give riders who came into contact with it would stand a better chance . ..... No response from the CoC. It would be interesting to learn the remuneration of those involved over the years before I would make accusations about "lining pockets" , perhaps you could provide that information to demonstrate how 'facile' that accusation is ? You make a good point, regarding Casey's a friend of mine has marshalled in the Kirk Michael and Alpine area for several years he has compiled at leat 3 reports following fatal racing accidents in this section all suggesting removing the small piece of kerb that juts out into the course and has the ability to catch riders out had this been followed up and competed then who knows Raul Torras Martinez may have still been with us I have read the risk assessment for the TT course and there are a number of places like this not mentioned as a potential risk but with very little cost and almost no difference to the overall lay out of the course loss of lives or serious injury might be prevented ,question is after the event, and everyone has gone home , does anyone of the organisers or motorsport team listen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A fool and his money..... Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 57 minutes ago, Gizo said: Are you local? Who me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Flint Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 7 minutes ago, Barlow said: Nice to see you are now on first names terms. You have expressed previously how frosty, for no apparent reason, he was towards you. Amazing how a possibility of some compo can change attitudes. I've always referred to him as Sean. We've also had our differences over the years. However, from the outset of the Mercer incident I recognised him as a victim. He deserves every support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Flint Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 22 hours ago, La Colombe said: The David Jeffries crash was another one. Oh, and Gus Scott. I can think of others. For watershed moments we do seem to keep having them. Gus Scott. Single human factor that shouldn't have happened. Why we will never know. Jeffrey- alleged oil spill? Can't recall. 4 hours ago, On The Level said: I'm sorry Derek but Counsell had no business driving at that speed when the rider originally involved had already died. He did so solely for his own excitement and therefore must bear at least some responsibility. The thought of him receiving any monetary compensation is galling. 3 hours ago, Gladys said: Has he had training in emergency vehicle driving? Does having two police officers in the car change anything? They are not in control of the vehicle. 3 hours ago, On The Level said: I've personally witnessed him driving when there was NO incident, simply 'course inspecting' so i don't think it's too much of a leap to presume he was driving in similar, or even faster, manner. Whether there was belief the road was clear or not, he should have been able to stop safely for whatever reason. 2 hours ago, WTF said: maybe 20mph for all course cars and TM's then ? i don't think the speed the car was travelling at has been revealed but regardless the speed of the bikes that should never have been there was also a factor With regard of these four posts; If it recall correctly there was an arbitrary speed limit of 90mph was placed on inspection and roads open cars. Not sure who picked that figure, or why, but it was intended to rein in some of the more 'flamboyant' laps. It transpired that there was a lack of clarity in the legislation as there was some conflict between the road races act and the road traffic act or something? Wasnt it successfully argued that the vehicle was being used for a 'policing purpose' and was therefore exempt? As I suspect you'll know, the exemption is on the vehicle rather than the driver so SC driving wouldnt be an issue. In the past there was a requirement to hold a police class 1 or a competition licence. I think subsequent drivers did undergo some high speed instruction. Might be wrong? 1 hour ago, A fool and his money..... said: I think a lot of people would like to believe that Manx history began the day they stepped off the boat, and that their influence on it has been much greater than it actually has in the meantime. The truth is the TT has always been well run. It's a dangerous event by its nature - closing nearly 40 miles of public roads to race the fastest motorbikes of the time will never be risk free, nor can every potential risk being anticipated or avoided. It's very easy to step off the boat having attended a couple of CPD's on risk, based on vague and contradictory research carried out in a completely different context by people who've never run a duck race, and to then assume that the management buzz words and ass covering techniques that you've learned make you professional and the local yokels who've been quietly running a unique event as safely as possible for the last century, mere amateurs. The truth is that safety has always been a priority for the organisers and this priority has never stopped developing, nor will it in the future. Whether this be due to new technology or in response to tragic events, this change has been a constant throughout the TT's history and calling the changes "watersheds" doesn't change that. That said it's true that some events have a greater impact on the TT than others. In my lifetime the two that spring to mind are the death of Dave Jefferies in 2003, which brought about significant changes, and perhaps the appointment of Dave Phillips who I think has played an important role in developing the event in the last 20 years. Both have made considerable advancements to safety, but I think the most important factor in safety at the event continues to be the knowledge and experience of people who have devoted years to its running, performing 'risk management " in all but name and learning from every "watershed" as it happens. I think to write them off as amateurs in favour of some buzz words and a lot more ass covering is the most dangerous thing you could possibly do. Just no. It was clear in the early days practices were primitive. Many years of experience policing it, investigating racing incidents and general involvement didn't change my mind. There was a step change in 2007 and it's marched really well in the right direction. The current involvement of the likes of Nigel Crellin has made the marked difference. Those are the sort of people that influence change. And they are both Manx. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) i knew about the 90mph limit but that doesn't tell us what speed the car was actually travelling at , and to be honest 90mph or more there in a quick car in that location when both carriageways should be available isn't pushing it as far as i'm concerned. Edited July 11 by WTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 35 minutes ago, Omobono said: You make a good point, regarding Casey's a friend of mine has marshalled in the Kirk Michael and Alpine area for several years he has compiled at leat 3 reports following fatal racing accidents in this section all suggesting removing the small piece of kerb that juts out into the course and has the ability to catch riders out had this been followed up and competed then who knows Raul Torras Martinez may have still been with us I have read the risk assessment for the TT course and there are a number of places like this not mentioned as a potential risk but with very little cost and almost no difference to the overall lay out of the course loss of lives or serious injury might be prevented ,question is after the event, and everyone has gone home , does anyone of the organisers or motorsport team listen I had heard about the problems @"Alpine" and the failure of the CoC / motorsport team to address the problem Sadly the CoC would appear to be one of those individuals who refuses to consider the views of the foot soldiers as he feels he knows better because he's in charge and to do so he would loose face . If, god forbid , there is another similar fatality @ Casey's he cannot abdicate his responsibility and IMO should be facing a manslaughter charge (and I would be prepared to be a witness for the prosecution). He binned off a Chief Sector Marshal because he voiced an alternative opinion to his own Marshals are now 'required' to endorse and applaud all the decisions of himself and the motorsport team ,as a result many local marshals have declined to volunteer as the (military )attitude of obeying orders without question and keeping your mouth shut is as difficult to swallow as "making love by numbers " 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 just going back to the car speed , i would expect that it had a GPS transponder of some sort in it so the speed ought to be known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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