Non-Believer Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 1 hour ago, Max Power said: Agree, Gus Scott was a human error, nobody knows what went through April’s head when she dashed across the road. It did lead to more stringent controls about setting foot on a live course, which has created problems of its own. David Jefferies clipped the left hand wall while slipstreaming Adrian Archibald. This flipped him across the road to his right. There was no oil on the course from a retired machine, it wasn’t leaking oil! Everyone was quick to blame the marshals, the comms system etc because a random person rang race control to report the accident and was asked to identify themselves. The press had a field day blaming everyone they could, except for the actual reasons. It was made worse when the official reports didn’t reach the right conclusions for political reasons! Surely it was recorded on the inquest that oil was a contributing factor (at least)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 10 hours ago, Ghost Ship said: As I've said in my previous post, Derek Flint has posted several months if not years ago that because there had been a fatality then the police needed to be in attendance at the accident scene ASAP. (Whether that is true or not I don't know - but I beleive that is the gist of what Derek has previously posted...) Counsell was doing what he thought he should be doing... He could not reasonably have expected to meet riders coming the wrong way around the circuit... There was no need for the police to attend , it was single rider incident , if another rider had been involved then the police would attend . No police visited "Casey's" after the 2 fatalities until the next day . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 57 minutes ago, Gizo said: Are you saying John McGuinness is a liar then? Mistaken. A lot of assumptions were made at the time because the retired machine was smoking, but it had dropped no oil. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 10 hours ago, Ghost Ship said: You can't reasonably believe that somebody in these circumstances should be expected to be ready to stop when nobody should be travelling in the opposite direction? The only person at fault here is whoever directed the riders to go back counter-clockwise around the circuit. Oh - they aren't the only person. There's all the other marshalls they must have passed and should have thought "Hold on! Whas happening? Why are they going the wrong way?" A marshal @ Sulby bridge did stop some riders following , picture on front page of Examiner. Offered to attend enquiry but offer refused . Hope this helps. Riders were told @ riders briefing when returning after area flag to follow a TM at road speed , they clearly didn't 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 2 minutes ago, paswt said: There was no need for the police to attend , it was single rider incident , if another rider had been involved then the police would attend . No police visited "Casey's" after the 2 fatalities until the next day . It seems to depend on who is in charge on the day, they don’t seem to have a written policy. Single rider incidents never required police attendance until the roads open and still don’t, unless they feel like it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 10 minutes ago, Max Power said: It seems to depend on who is in charge on the day, they don’t seem to have a written policy. Single rider incidents never required police attendance until the roads open and still don’t, unless they feel like it? Two single rider incidents I dealt with over the last 4 years (one fatal, other nearly) - both involved the police. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizo Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 1 hour ago, Max Power said: Mistaken. A lot of assumptions were made at the time because the retired machine was smoking, but it had dropped no oil. So why didn’t you tell the inquiry? Mr Withers the Marshall ascertained there was a film of oil. so basically the inquiry was a sham and you on a keyboard 20 odd years later knows the whole truth of the incident but yet you weren’t there and every participant in that inquiry is a liar. Remarkable stuff. the TT evangelists know no bounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barlow Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 2 hours ago, La Colombe said: It seems pretty clear cut that Mr Flint is correct on this one. However reckless and macho a driver and however objectionable a character Mr Counsell might be, the fact remains he was sent into oncoming traffic when he shouldn't have been. What are the facts about the psychological damage caused? Under all the circumstances it just seems highly ironic. But when the compo flag is waved, hey, make like the actual victim and go for the wonga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piebaps Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 3 hours ago, La Colombe said: It seems pretty clear cut that Mr Flint is correct on this one. However reckless and macho a driver and however objectionable a character Mr Counsell might be, the fact remains he was sent into oncoming traffic when he shouldn't have been. Moyle described him thus in the inquest report "I have no doubt that they are normal, ordinary, decent and genuine people" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 49 minutes ago, piebaps said: Moyle described him thus in the inquest report "I have no doubt that they are normal, ordinary, decent and genuine people" Didn’t you miss part out where he said they didn’t believe their evidence & they should be banned from being involved in motorcycle events? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Colombe Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 2 hours ago, Barlow said: What are the facts about the psychological damage caused? I don't know, but if I had to guess, I'd say that he duffed you up when you were kids and you've been psychologically damaged ever since. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 3 hours ago, piebaps said: Moyle described him thus in the inquest report "I have no doubt that they are normal, ordinary, decent and genuine people" Lawyers always say that sort of thing just before they put the boot in. I think it's to show that they don't have any innate bias against the people concerned, they're duffing them up based entirely on the evidence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 (edited) 21 hours ago, paswt said: 22 hours ago, Omobono said: You make a good point, regarding Casey's a friend of mine has marshalled in the Kirk Michael and Alpine area for several years he has compiled at leat 3 reports following fatal racing accidents in this section all suggesting removing the small piece of kerb that juts out into the course and has the ability to catch riders out had this been followed up and competed then who knows Raul Torras Martinez may have still been with us I have read the risk assessment for the TT course and there are a number of places like this not mentioned as a potential risk but with very little cost and almost no difference to the overall lay out of the course loss of lives or serious injury might be prevented ,question is after the event, and everyone has gone home , does anyone of the organisers or motorsport team listen I had heard about the problems @"Alpine" and the failure of the CoC / motorsport team to address the problem Sadly the CoC would appear to be one of those individuals who refuses to consider the views of the foot soldiers as he feels he knows better because he's in charge and to do so he would loose face . If, god forbid , there is another similar fatality @ Casey's he cannot abdicate his responsibility and IMO should be facing a manslaughter charge (and I would be prepared to be a witness for the prosecution). He binned off a Chief Sector Marshal because he voiced an alternative opinion to his own Marshals are now 'required' to endorse and applaud all the decisions of himself and the motorsport team ,as a result many local marshals have declined to volunteer as the (military )attitude of obeying orders without question and keeping your mouth shut is a stupid requirement 😉 Marshals have always been taken for granted eg when last to leave the mountain after the restatement of the signage /replacement of the cones / recovery of abandoned bikes , until the mountain marshals said they would step over the tape unless they had an absolute guarantee that they wouldn't be the last to be considered . The marshals are told they are entered into a raffle for the donated prizes from competitors and sponsors , at the "Marshals supper" . However only 200 places for all marshals available and the only ones entered were those attending the supper , including (I reliably told by an attendee) prominent "management folk". Mr Flint said some kind words about a Nigel Crellin , the same chap who assured the members of the IOM TT marshals association ltd ( 400-600 members) that it was more democratic to have 2 "members" prior to the IOMTTMA being wound up (without an AGM/EGM or Annual return indicating it's assets and liabilities) and it's assets being "stolen" by the TTMA ltd . Funny old world. I'm advised there are in excess of 25,000 marshals on the books , how many have voted with their feet and why one wonders . 'Expand' to see my comments Edited July 12 by paswt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 6 hours ago, Gizo said: So why didn’t you tell the inquiry? Mr Withers the Marshall ascertained there was a film of oil. so basically the inquiry was a sham and you on a keyboard 20 odd years later knows the whole truth of the incident but yet you weren’t there and every participant in that inquiry is a liar. Remarkable stuff. the TT evangelists know no bounds Well I do know a bit more than you may think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 8 hours ago, Non-Believer said: Surely it was recorded on the inquest that oil was a contributing factor (at least)? It was never determined that oil played any part. It was suggested that it may have, due to the concerns about the retired machine smoking as it pulled in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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