Assisted Dying

[thommo2010]

I was reading that dignitas in Switzerland costs 10 grand. It's bad times when you can't even afford to end yourself. 

[code99]

From UK Government sources:

“The amount of time people are projected to live with major illness is expected to increase from 11.2 years in 2019 to 12.6 years in 2040”.

“Around 470,000 people die each year in England and this is projected to rise by 20% over the next twenty years”.

If there is a disconnect between the Assisted Dying legislations in England and the Isle of Man, then it is not out of the question that some terminally ill UK residents could try to plan to move here for their end-of life treatment. It seems to me that even as few as 50 additional very ill people per year could put Manx Care services under significant pressure, given that “10,800 people currently awaiting a first appointment, and more than 30,000 waiting for follow-ups”.

Mans Care is asking for more money to provide services to the living, not terminally ill but suffering residents – how would Manx Care cope if the Assisted Dying legislation generated additional demands on their services? Has Dr Allinson budgeted for this increased demand in his latest Budget for future years?

[Dirty Buggane]

53 minutes ago, John Wright said:

To avoid death tourism, like Dignitas and Switzerland, the idea of requiring one years residence, is a pretty pragmatic filter. You’d need to rent or lease or own property here.

Is this going to be a government scheme to bolster the rental market, gives a whole new meaning to Westmorland road 15 minute village short term let's available.

[Albert Tatlock]

55 minutes ago, John Wright said:

How many people are going to be planning their own death a year, or more, ahead.

More than you might think - demonstrated by several who have been through some lengthy UK and higher court cases trying to change the law (some cases running for years). Depends on the problem, disease and prognosis of course - and some diseases take years to kill you in a nasty but predictable way.

[code99]

1 hour ago, Dirty Buggane said:

Is this going to be a government scheme to bolster the rental market, gives a whole new meaning to Westmorland road 15 minute village short term let's available.

e.g., they will also compete for housing (to buy or to rent or to lease) against first time buyers...young families with kids, etc, etc.

[Barlow]

Slightly off topic, but not really. I'll try and make this brief:

Every single person in UK who may be subject to Inheritance Tax should consider living in Isle of Man for at least the last 5 years of their life. That will save their loved ones sooo much heartache and hassle for many reasons (to say nothing of the cash saved).

 

[John Wright]

@code99 @Albert Tatlock @Dirty Buggane

I think you’re overplaying a fear card, or cards. Whether that be the the strain on medical, housing or social or benefit services.

Try and look at sensibly and dispassionately.

@Albert Tatlock yes, there have been a few, very few, high profile cases. However the fact they’ve been brought at all tends to indicate the exact opposite of what you postulate about numbers. They wanted to be able to time their death, at home, with no risk to their nearest and dearest. They didn’t want to travel to Switzerland and choose dignitas, after all that’s still leaving your loved ones at risk of a police enquiry and possible conspiracy or aid/abet charges.

Likewise, for IoM, is it really likely that someone who is seriously, terminally, ill, with ( as in most of the cases ) MND is going to disrupt their lives and those of their loved ones, to move here. Moving house and country is stressful, doing it whilst you’re terminally ill, just about impossible.

Often the litigation starts after they are no longer able to get the medication and take it themselves. Too late for Dignitas, you have to be able to take the meds yourself, not have them administered by family or a third party. Far too late for what’s planned here.

These cases are about the exceptions, not the norms.

@Albert Tatlock @code99 most of the people you are talking about aren’t working. They’re going to be in receipt of a variety of means tested benefits and local authority care packages.  First, they have to be here for 5 years to qualify, or for their carers to qualify, for the the means tested benefits, second the care packages, including house adaptations, are much less widely available here, if at all. 

What you fear may come to pass just isn’t a practical option for 99.99% of the few 100 UK people who might want to end their suffering by choosing time and method of death.

@code99 @Dirty Buggane and do you really think those properties will be suitable? Wider doors, lifts, ramps, adapted kitchens, accessible bathrooms, hoists in bed rooms and bathrooms? Of course not.

People tend to plan, in the cases, to protect their loved ones from police involvement after their death.

[GD4ELI]

7 minutes ago, Barlow said:

Slightly off topic, but not really. I'll try and make this brief:

Every single person in UK who may be subject to Inheritance Tax should consider living in Isle of Man for at least the last 5 years of their life. That will save their loved ones sooo much heartache and hassle for many reasons (to say nothing of the cash saved).

 

So, you're suggesting elderly people go through the hassle of moving house and leaving friends and loved ones just for money?

[Barlow]

9 minutes ago, GD4ELI said:

So, you're suggesting elderly people go through the hassle of moving house and leaving friends and loved ones just for money?

Well actually, I did say "to say nothing of the cash saved".
Yes indeed, there's more to life, and death, than money. 

[code99]

13 minutes ago, John Wright said:

@code99 @Albert Tatlock @Dirty Buggane

I think you’re overplaying a fear card, or cards. Whether that be the the strain on medical or social or benefit services.

Try and look at sensibly and dispassionately.

@Albert Tatlock yes, there have been a few, very few, high profile cases. However the fact they’ve been brought at all tends to indicate the exact opposite of what you postulate about numbers. They wanted to be able to time their death, at home, with no risk to their nearest and dearest. They didn’t want to travel to Switzerland and choose dignitas, after all that’s still leaving your loved ones at risk of a police enquiry and possible conspiracy or aid/abet charges.

Likewise, for IoM, is it really likely that someone who is seriously, terminally, ill, with ( as in most of the cases ) MND is going to disrupt their lives and those of their loved ones, to move here. Moving house and country is stressful, doing it whilst you’re terminally ill, just about impossible.

Often the litigation starts after they are no longer able to get the medication and take it themselves. Too late for Dignitas, you have to be able to take the meds yourself, not have them administered by family or a third party. Far too late for what’s planned here.

These cases are about the exceptions, not the norms.

@Albert Tatlock @code99 most of the people you are talking about aren’t working. They’re going to be in receipt of a variety of means tested benefits and local authority care packages.  First, they have to be here for 5 years to qualify, or for their carers to qualify, for the the means tested benefits, second the care packages, including house adaptations, are much less widely available here, if at all. 

What you fear may come to pass just isn’t a practical option for 99.99% of the few 100 UK people who might want to end their suffering by choosing time and method of death.

@code99 @Dirty Buggane and do you really think those properties will be suitable? Wider doors, lifts, ramps, adapted kitchens, accessible bathrooms, hoists in bed rooms and bathrooms? Of course not.

People tend to plan, in the cases, to protect their loved ones from police involvement after their death.

Let me be clear - I support the Assisted Dying Bill. I just don't want IOM taxpayers picking up the bills for medical expenses that are predictable, or the costs of any other unintended consequences. As always, time will tell.

[Dirty Buggane]

I honestly could not care less, if some one wishes to end their life on their terms who am I to stand in the way. Whether these property's are suitable or not government should not be going "hey look at the profits landlords are making we should be having some of this" We can sell it on first time buyers property's available. Government should not be trying to be a private landlord, who will be paying for upkeep of these properties the tax payer where as the rents will be. Its not really tax payers money after we pay to build the sodding thing.

[Albert Tatlock]

I too support the bill...but I still think it's a legitimate concern to explore the potential repercussions far more.

It's not like IOM Govt have won prizes for financial planning is it?

[WTF]

15 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

 

It's not like IOM Govt have won prizes for financial planning is it?

they have for themselves.

[Utah 01]

What's the current situation of the Bill here?  I note that the Jocks are discussing it and, as usual, as a once potential 'leader' in the question, others will possibly overtake us and leave us behind.

There was a (not unexpectedly) well-reasoned article on the matter in the DT today:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/28/lord-sumption-medically-assisted-suicide-moral-dilemma/

[Moghrey Mie]

6 minutes ago, Utah 01 said:

What's the current situation of the Bill here?  I note that the Jocks are discussing it and, as usual, as a once potential 'leader' in the question, others will possibly overtake us and leave us behind.

There was a (not unexpectedly) well-reasoned article on the matter in the DT today:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/28/lord-sumption-medically-assisted-suicide-moral-dilemma/

It's going to committee. We have been there before.