The Voice of Reason Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 1 hour ago, HeliX said: No, it was an unbelievably stupid thing to put to referendum, as shown by the most googled thing the morning after in the UK being "what is the EU". Many pro-leave also acknowledge this fact. You only think it was an unbelievably stupid thing to put to a referendum because it didn’t produce the “ right” result for you. OK perhaps you could enlighten us as to what would be a less “ stupid” thing to put to a referendum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 7 hours ago, P.K. said: Well, if brexit had delivered on it's promises of cheaper food, cheaper fuel, higher standards of living, a fully funded NHS, fewer immigrants/migrants etc etc then Cameron could have taken the credit. These are definitely dark days for the UK... But we've had 8 years of world events since then which you never address. Covid, war, energy/raw material shortages which have come at huge cost and had a global impact on prices. The 2020s are dark days for the world compared with the 2000s. This is indisputable and very little to do with Brexit. The NHS will never be fully funded, by the way. It's a demand led service, and there's always increasing demand for new and more expensive treatments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 10 hours ago, manxman1980 said: We need a *Yawn* reaction button... Right about that, at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 2 hours ago, HeliX said: No, it was an unbelievably stupid thing to put to referendum, as shown by the most googled thing the morning after in the UK being "what is the EU". Many pro-leave also acknowledge this fact. You think it was just Leave voters doing that? I suggest to you that most Leave voters know EXACTLY what the EU is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: If people insist on bringing up Brexit in this thread... Isn't it noticeable that Brexit is the elephant in the room in this election campaign? I have not seen one party acknowledge Brexit or the future relationship with the EU beyond references when discussing immigration. I suspect that at the end of this next Parliament that we won't be able to move for that elephant. It's a niche interest now that long ago passed its high water mark. Very little interest in Rejoin campaigns. Hardly an elephant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 26 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: You only think it was an unbelievably stupid thing to put to a referendum because it didn’t produce the “ right” result for you. OK perhaps you could enlighten us as to what would be a less “ stupid” thing to put to a referendum? No I think it was stupid because it was stupid. If it had gone the way I'd have preferred it still would have been fucking stupid. Sensible things to put to referendum are things the average member of the public understands the impact of. I.e. not very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 28 minutes ago, woolley said: Really? To quote you: Shame he threw away a decent legacy with the referendum. Yes. He threw it away by calling a stupid referendum and then flouncing on the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 15 minutes ago, woolley said: You think it was just Leave voters doing that? I suggest to you that most Leave voters know EXACTLY what the EU is. No, I think it was both. And I would bet you every penny under the sun that most voters on both sides had very little understanding of the EU, or the implications of being in or out. Which is why it was a stupid referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 1 hour ago, woolley said: But we've had 8 years of world events since then which you never address. Covid, war, energy/raw material shortages which have come at huge cost and had a global impact on prices. The 2020s are dark days for the world compared with the 2000s. This is indisputable and very little to do with Brexit. The NHS will never be fully funded, by the way. It's a demand led service, and there's always increasing demand for new and more expensive treatments. You have clearly forgotten how I have previously addressed this. Mainly because you didn't like it... The brexit referendum was on the 23rd June 2016. On the 22nd June 2016, the day before the referendum, the £1 was trading at EUR 1.3056 and USD 1.4795 On the 22nd March 2024 the £1 was trading at EUR 1.1604 and USD 1.2600 - which was the last time I checked. So the £ was down 11% against the EUR and down 16% against the USD. Now the EU had also suffered from covid, war, energy/raw material shortages and so forth. And yet despite it's strategically appalling mistake of being dependent on Russian energy over the same period Germany's currency only dropped against the USD by 4%. An awful lot better than the UK's 16%. I wonder why...? You're also wrong about the NHS. Blair and Brown cut waiting lists for surgery to sod-all, the longest you would have to wait to see a GP would be the next day and the Cust Sat rating for the NHS was at it's highest level ever. This is because they factored in that the NHS needed a budget increase of 3.6% year-on-year to function in the way a modern society should expect. Their right wing ideals dictated to tories Dave and Gideon that if they cut the budget they would not only save money but also position the NHS to be ripe for privatisation by their city chums. Win/Win. So under the guise of "austerity" they slashed the annual budget increase from 3.6% to just 1.5% thereby deliberately debilitating the service. The result of which we are still seeing today with a once proud NHS reduced to a broken shadow of it's former self riven and with disaffection. And Sunak gave Cameron a peerage and made him Foreign Secretary. You just couldn't make it up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 21 minutes ago, P.K. said: You have clearly forgotten how I have previously addressed this. Mainly because you didn't like it... The brexit referendum was on the 23rd June 2016. On the 22nd June 2016, the day before the referendum, the £1 was trading at EUR 1.3056 and USD 1.4795 On the 22nd March 2024 the £1 was trading at EUR 1.1604 and USD 1.2600 - which was the last time I checked. So what? You are aware that exchange rates are volatile? I've traded them for 30 years. In October 2000 the £ was EUR 1.70. In March 2009 it was EUR 1.08. A massive decline during our EU membership, so are we to blame the EU for that? In Feb 2013, 3 years before Brexit, it stood at EUR 1.159, less than it is today. Your argument doesn't stand up. Not that it would be a determining factor even if your point was valid. What price freedom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 5 hours ago, woolley said: So what? You are aware that exchange rates are volatile? I've traded them for 30 years. In October 2000 the £ was EUR 1.70. In March 2009 it was EUR 1.08. A massive decline during our EU membership, so are we to blame the EU for that? In Feb 2013, 3 years before Brexit, it stood at EUR 1.159, less than it is today. Your argument doesn't stand up. Not that it would be a determining factor even if your point was valid. What price freedom? What price "freedom" - you're having a laugh! According to the OBR some 4% of GDP! As per with a tory government those with the least suffer the most but who cares eh? It's totally worthless quoting historical exchange rate data. As you yourself pointed out in recent times we've all had to deal with a highly unusual set of circumstances namely a pandemic, conflicts that have skewed vital energy supplies and a totally stupid and completely unnecessary act of economic self harm. Therefore my revised start date (after you dripped and moaned about the previous one...) of 22 June 2016, the day before the referendum, is the obvious and only relevant choice. So the data stands on it's own merits and with the cost of living crisis etc shouldn't really surprise anyone... I also trust you're now up to speed on the crisis in the NHS and it's causes. Happy to help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 10 hours ago, woolley said: It's a niche interest now that long ago passed its high water mark. Very little interest in Rejoin campaigns. Hardly an elephant. I never said anything about rejoining... International trade and foreign policy are important for the future of the UK which includes the relationship with the EU. The UK needs to work with them on subjects such as migration and trade. Sunak is trying to frighten people to vote Tory but ignores the relationship with the EU and NATO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoopsaa Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 11 hours ago, HeliX said: No I think it was stupid because it was stupid. If it had gone the way I'd have preferred it still would have been fucking stupid. Sensible things to put to referendum are things the average member of the public understands the impact of. I.e. not very much. Aha, the lovely left, advocates for the working class, show us what they think about us yet again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, hoopsaa said: Aha, the lovely left, advocates for the working class, show us what they think about us yet again. @hoopsaa What's with the "us" reference? Care to share? Edited June 1 by P.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 1 hour ago, hoopsaa said: Aha, the lovely left, advocates for the working class, show us what they think about us yet again. Do you think it was incorrect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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