The General Election in the United Kingdom

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, HeliX said:

You don't see a connection between the rhetoric of the group Britain First, and a bloke who shouted "Britain First!" while murdering someone?

It matters not what the murderer shouted.

The sole responsibility for Jo Cox’s death rests with the murderer, Alexander Mair.

You would have a point if any of the individuals or groups mentioned,, advocates murder as a means of advancing their aims, but they don’t, at least not to my knowledge

To try and attach any degree of culpability to anyone else ( even, say, Britain First and Tommy Robinson as odious and horrible as they both are) is not reasonable.

[RecklessAbandon]

2 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

It matters not what the murderer shouted.

The sole responsibility for Jo Cox’s death rests with the murderer, Alexander Mair.

You would have a point if any of the individuals or groups mentioned,, advocates murder as a means of advancing their aims, but they don’t, at least not to my knowledge

To try and attach any degree of culpability to anyone else ( even, say, Britain First and Tommy Robinson as odious and horrible as they both are) is not reasonable.

Nonsense, you see no linkage between the messages that those people/groups are spreading to their audience and the outcomes that those messages produce?
 

 

[RecklessAbandon]

A few interesting statistics about Clacton, courtesy of the Electoral Calculus:

96% ethnic white population

76% voted to leave the EU 65%

deprivation 42%

employment 32%

well educated

Average age: 56.8

Political leaning: Strong right

Previous election results: Conservative (2019 & 2017), UKIP (2015)

Perfect breeding ground for Reform voters and exactly why Farage picked it.

[The Phantom]

Battle Royale of Rayner vs Mourdant vs Farage on Friday eve. 

Probably going to be more interesting than Richie and Mr Dull last night. 

[manxman1980]

28 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Nonsense, you see no linkage between the messages that those people/groups are spreading to their audience and the outcomes that those messages produce?
 

 

They can't admit that because if they do then they acknowledge that some of their own views are tied to those groups and people.

[RecklessAbandon]

13 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

They can't admit that because if they do then they acknowledge that some of their own views are tied to those groups and people.

It is reminiscent of the school shooter (whose name I can neither remember or will signal boost by investigating), but his long and rambling manifesto cited the likes of Shapiro, Carlson, Peterson, MTG etc as his "heroes" and "inspiration" and they could not distance themselves from the shooter quick enough because they didn't want people forming the logical linkage between their output and the shooter.

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Nonsense, you see no linkage between the messages that those people/groups are spreading to their audience and the outcomes that those messages produce?
 

 

OK let’s talk about “ linkage”

In Northern Ireland the Social Democratic and Labour Party (“SDLP”) advocates the re-unification of Ireland ( a legitimate aspiration, as indeed was the aspiration of Brexit voters to leave the EU)

Surely then,  using your twisted logic the SDLP bear responsibility for the atrocities carried out by the IRA during The Troubles. The message being that the SDLP want Ireland to be a United country.

Did that message “ spread”  to the IRA who took up arms leading to an outcome of decades of bombings and murders. Of course it’s all down to the SDLP obviously, like Farage is somehow responsible for the tragic murder of Jo Cox

[RecklessAbandon]

10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK let’s talk about “ linkage”

In Northern Ireland the Social Democratic and Labour Party (“SDLP”) advocates the re-unification of Ireland ( a legitimate aspiration, as indeed was the aspiration of Brexit voters to leave the EU)

Surely then,  using your twisted logic the SDLP bear responsibility for the atrocities carried out by the IRA during The Troubles. The message being that the SDLP want Ireland to be a United country.

Did that message “ spread”  to the IRA who took up arms leading to an outcome of decades of bombings and murders. Of course it’s all down to the SDLP obviously, like Farage is somehow responsible for the tragic murder of Jo Cox

I'd rather you explain why there is no linkage between the message and the outcome, rather than engaging in "whataboutism" (especially such a weak one).

[Cambon]

17 hours ago, P.K. said:

@Cambon

Yes, I get it and always have done.

The point I am making, that for some reason you seem to be missing, is that time and again brexiteers point out that during the period from the referendum to the present time the whole planet suffered from circumstances that were very exceptional. Which is absolutely true. I certainly never expected a lethal pandemic nor did I ever expect Russian tanks to be rolling West intent on invasion! I'm sure nobody else did as well! However it's obvious to me that the reason they adopt this tactic is to create a smokesceen to protect their precious brexit from too much scrutiny.

Which is daft really as we all know that trade suffered, inflation was higher in the UK than elsewhere, we have massive debt, schools are falling down, the NHS is knackered and riven with dissent, record levels of taxation, record levels of child poverty, public services will have to be cut etc etc etc. Basically the UK is in a really shit state.

The figures for the period in question show that Sterling has fallen by 11% against the EURO and 15% against the USD. And this is where the "exceptional circumstances" count against the brexiteers. Because they were exceptional, and nobody would dispute that, what has gone on before that isn't that relevant. How could it be? Plus it's obvious from the numbers that our two biggest trading partners, the EU and the US, have come through those big hitters in much better shape than we have.

But then they didn't have a very exceptional act of economic self harm to cope with as well...

 

 

 

The majority of what you have said has been caused by a failing government. As I said earlier, time for a change. 
With regard to exchange rates, the biggest knock the pound took was during the banking crisis, caused by lying labour. The crisis was world wide but the deceit of Brown at the time caused the uk the biggest amount of harm, possibly of all time. Pound dropped to near par with the Euro. It is now up about 12% from there, and will continue to improve over the long term. 
With regard to international trade, the majority of problems have been with the EU who are still pissed off with the UK. They will be even more pissed off next year when the exit payments virtually stop. 
Inflation was going to happen regardless of Brexit. I was in the USA a couple of times in 2019. I couldn’t believe how expensive it was. I said at the time, UK is in for a shock. That was before the Covid debt was taken on. 
 

[The Voice of Reason]

5 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said:

I'd rather you explain why there is no linkage between the message and the outcome, rather than engaging in "whataboutism" (especially such a weak one).

There is no direct linkage. Tenuous at best.

Let me try and explain to you. Again this is whataboutism but it seems the simplest way to get through to you.

Imagine this scenario:-

I am an anti  abortion campaigner. I do not advocate violence but I appear on the media explaining why I think abortion is wrong ( that is my “ message”)

You watch me on TV and read my comments in the media. You think that I have a point. ( You may already hold that view but what I say on TV or what you read, reinforces  that)

So the next day you go out and burn down a couple of abortion clinics and stab a couple of staff working in them.

So the damage to life and property is apparently my fault.

And you get idiots blaming me for the damage on social media for expressing my anti abortion views in a land where we are supposed to have free speech.

 

Edited June 5 by The Voice of Reason

[HeliX]

6 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

There is no direct linkage. Tenuous at best.

Let me try and explain to you. Again this is whataboutism but it seems the simplest way to get through to you.

Imagine this scenario:-

I am an anti  abortion campaigner. I do not advocate violence but I appear on the media explaining why I think abortion is wrong ( that is my “ message”)

You watch me on TV and read my comments in the media. You think that I have a point. ( You may already hold that view but what I say on TV or what you read, reinforces  that)

So the next day you go out and burn down a couple of abortion clinics and stab a couple of staff working in them.

So the damage to life and property is apparently my fault.

And you get idiots blaming me for the damage on social media for expressing my anti abortion views in a land where we are supposed to have free speech.

 

What if you'd spent years proselytizing that abortion was going to bring about the end of the country, that it was going to cost people their jobs, that violence, rape and murder would be the end result of allowing abortion, that anyone who supports abortion is trying to ruin the country and your life? You might then have a convincing case that if someone went out and murdered a pro-abortion politician, whilst shouting the name of your political party, that you may have not helped that person see life in a sensible way.

[The Voice of Reason]

6 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said:

I'd rather you explain why there is no linkage between the message and the outcome, rather than engaging in "whataboutism" (especially such a weak one).

In your own real life do you take responsibility for your own actions.?

Or in your own mind are you still at school? 
“ But Sir, he told me to do it so I did”

[Chinahand]

As far as I am aware, Farage has espoused constitutional and non violent methods* of enacting policy change.

I don't like his politics, he likely doesn't like mine, but so what, we can debate and persuade and use democratic means to advance our causes.

Tarring people as advocating violence is highly problematic in my view.

 

*For example as far as I'm aware he'd denounced the Riot at the US Congress on January 20th.

[Mr. Sausages]

 

 

[HeliX]

I wonder what decade people will learn that it's not safe to say "As far as I know Farage hasn't done [specific stupid thing]".