Public sector want inflation busting rises again

[manxman1980]

7 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

You'll have to show your working

PSC IOM 20 days + PH

GREGGS 21 days + PH

Where did your extra 2 weeks come from? I make it 2 days extra here.

As @John Wright has said the relevant employment legislation does not identify public/bank holidays (in fact you will struggle to find any legislation that creates a right for time off work on those days).  The legislation specifies a minimum number of weeks paid leave per year.  It is an employer choice whether or not to include bank/public holidays in the basic entitlement or not.

Most employers will break the holiday up so that it appears like this in the UK;

Holiday entitlement:  20 days (4 weeks)

Public/Bank holidays: 8 days (1.6 weeks)

5.6 weeks is the statutory minimum in the UK.  Greggs have clearly decided to enhance this by one day.

On the Island that statutory minimum is 4 weeks so an employer could show it as;

Holiday entitlement:  10 days (2 weeks)

Public/Bank Holidays:  10 days (2 weeks) 

The Isle of Man really is poor for statutory holiday entitlement.

 

 

[A fool and his money.....]

36 minutes ago, John Wright said:

That’s one day more than the UK minimum, 10 days more than the Manx minimum.

We get at least two days more bank holidays than England.

public servants with their basic entitlement, privilege day, and bank/public holidays are on between 7 and 8 working weeks paid leave. Your son gets 6. Someone on the Manx statutory minimum gets 4.

Are you sure they get between 7 and 8 working weeks paid leave? Every advert I've seen recently says 20 days plus UK and Manx public holidays which would be around 6 weeks surely?

Edited June 22 by A fool and his money.....

[John Wright]

6 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Are you sure they get between 7 and 8 working weeks paid leave? Every advert I've seen recently says 20 days plus UK and Manx public holidays which would be around 6 weeks surely?

Since 20/21 new raw junior recruits start at 20 and work up to 28. Those starting before then work up to 30. Plus public holidays.

28 + 10, plus a privilege day, is 39 paid days. 30 + 10 plus a privilege day is 41. Divide by 5 and it’s a day either side of 8 weeks after either 8 or 10 years service.

[A fool and his money.....]

4 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Since 20/21 new raw junior recruits start at 20 and work up to 28. Those starting before then work up to 30. Plus public holidays.

28 + 10, plus a privilege day, is 39 paid days. 30 + 10 plus a privilege day is 41. Divide by 5 and it’s a day either side of 8 weeks after either 8 or 10 years service.

Ah okay, fair enough. How long does it take them to work up to 28 days?

[John Wright]

2 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Ah okay, fair enough. How long does it take them to work up to 28 days?

I think it’s one a year, on either scheme

The clue was in “after either 8 or 10 years service”

[John Wright]

12 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Ah okay, fair enough. How long does it take them to work up to 28 days?

Sorry. I’m wrong about the accrual. Here is the table.

 

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

PSC isn’t 20 days plus PH

I stand corrected it 21 days on appointment.  Same as Greggs

 

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

As @John Wright has said the relevant employment legislation does not identify public/bank holidays (in fact you will struggle to find any legislation that creates a right for time off work on those days).  The legislation specifies a minimum number of weeks paid leave per year.  It is an employer choice whether or not to include bank/public holidays in the basic entitlement or not.

Most employers will break the holiday up so that it appears like this in the UK;

Holiday entitlement:  20 days (4 weeks)

Public/Bank holidays: 8 days (1.6 weeks)

5.6 weeks is the statutory minimum in the UK.  Greggs have clearly decided to enhance this by one day.

On the Island that statutory minimum is 4 weeks so an employer could show it as;

Holiday entitlement:  10 days (2 weeks)

Public/Bank Holidays:  10 days (2 weeks) 

The Isle of Man really is poor for statutory holiday entitlement.

 

 

I wasnt debating legislation. I was debating that

1. PHs not normally counted as Annual leave

2. PSC employees do not get an excessive amount of holiday

I am yet to be convinced otherwise.

Ps Gregg's start on 21 and can earn up to another 9 (30) on years service.

 

[Non-Believer]

31 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

I wasnt debating legislation. I was debating that

1. PHs not normally counted as Annual leave

2. PSC employees do not get an excessive amount of holiday

I am yet to be convinced otherwise.

Ps Gregg's start on 21 and can earn up to another 9 (30) on years service.

1. Let's call it all statutory leave entitlement.

2. PSC terms were reduced in respect of leave and remuneration from implementation in 2016.

Employees with Legacy conditions from the pre-2016 PSC implementation (the old Whitley Council) still enjoy a vast array of annual entitlement, Public Holidays and accrual days. These employees still number thousands.

The formation of the PSC was intended to do a number of things. It was primarily intended to make PS wage costs and terms sustainable/affordable to the Govt. Secondly it was intended to rationalise a huge number of variants in pay, spinal grading and terms that had come to be over many years within the PS. People on all sorts of extra allowances for this, that and the other. People in different Depts but doing the same job on completely different payscales. People on different grades for doing the same thing in different places. All this attempt at resolution was entirely reasonable and laudable.

Where it has failed in cost reductions is in implementation because in best can-kicking fashion it was largely only applied to new recruits and internal transferees from 2016<, (and some of the new now rescinded terms were indeed draconian).

Because of perceived "legal challenge", existing employees (thousands) were allowed to continue on their old terms up until retirement. As with the PS pensions, the pain is to be felt by the newer generations of employees, the old, entitled guard remain untouched, (because they were the ones dreaming it up and implementing it). This includes the big ticket salaries that cause matters to be unsustainable and unaffordable in the first instance.

For example, if somebody joined the PS at 18 in 2016 just before PSC they potentially have a career on the old more generous terms, say retirement at 60 gives 42 years of service. PSC is eight years old now, so that's 34 years left. It will take that long for the old conditions, entitlements and pay rates to "purge" out of the PS. In the meantime the wage bill is £600M and rising. And thousands of PS employees are still on them.

Edited June 22 by Non-Believer
Typo

[Happier diner]

15 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

1. Let's call it all statutory leave entitlement.

2. PSC terms were reduced in respect of leave and remuneration from implementation in 2016.

Employees with Legacy conditions from the pre-2016 PSC implementation (the old Whitley Council) still enjoy a vast array of annual entitlement, Public Holidays and accrual days. These employees still number thousands.

The formation of the PSC was intended to do a number of things. It was primarily intended to make PS wage costs and terms sustainable/affordable to the Govt. Secondly it was intended to rationalise a huge number of variants in pay, spinal grading and terms that had come to be over many years within the PS. People on all sorts of extra allowances for this, that and the other. People in different Depts but doing the same job on completely different payscales. People on different grades for doing the same thing in different places. All this attempt at resolution was entirely reasonable and laudable.

Where it has failed in cost reductions is in implementation because in best can-kicking fashion it was largely only applied to new recruits and internal transferees from 2016<, (and some of the new now rescinded terms were indeed draconian).

Because of perceived "legal challenge", existing employees (thousands) were allowed to continue on their old terms up until retirement. As with the PS pensions, the pain is to be felt by the newer generations of employees, the old, entitled guard remain untouched, (because they were the ones dreaming it up and implementing it). This includes the big ticket salaries that cause matters to be unsustainable and unaffordable in the first instance.

For example, if somebody joined the PS at 18 in 2016 just before PSC they potentially have a career on the old more generous terms, say retirement at 60 gives 42 years of service. PSC is eight years old now, so that's 34 years left. It will take that long for the old conditions, entitlements and pay rates to "purge" out of the PS. In the meantime the wage bill is £600M and rising. And thousands of PS employees are still on them.

A comprehensive summary. I dont disagree with you.

I am still convinced by my own view though about holiday comparison. 

Can you remember what the starting leave allowance was on the old Whitley Council terms. I dont think it was much more than 21. You could earn more more quickly and get to a higher level.

I reckon the average now is probably around 25 with service earned. I got that 20 years ago working for a civil contractor and I think I got 22days when I worked at tesco as an year old

[Happier diner]

1 minute ago, Happier diner said:

A comprehensive summary. I dont disagree with you.

I am still convinced by my own view though about holiday comparison. 

Can you remember what the starting leave allowance was on the old Whitley Council terms. I dont think it was much more than 21. You could earn more more quickly and get to a higher level.

I reckon the average now is probably around 25 with service earned. I got that 20 years ago working for a civil contractor and I think I got 22days when I worked at tesco as an year old

Just checked. Hasn't changed in all that time. After 12 months Tesco staff get 22 days + public holidays. More than public service workers get here.

[Non-Believer]

2 hours ago, Happier diner said:

Just checked. Hasn't changed in all that time. After 12 months Tesco staff get 22 days + public holidays. More than public service workers get here.

It may be the case for many new PS starters NOW. But for hundreds if not thousands of legacy PS staff, the below is more applicable, although I concede that this may be an extreme example. But getting up to 40 days per year paid absence via annual holiday and PH entitlement on these legacy terms is not unusual.

[Happier diner]

7 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

But getting up to 40 days per year paid absence via annual holiday and PH entitlement on these legacy terms is not unusual.

How do you mean? You mean not unusual in civil service? Agreed. But you have to do quite a lot of service to get to 30 days. However, it's not that unusual in private industry either. Granted it's not as common but I have had 30 days in the past. It was with a UK contractor. We got taken over by a US contractor and they bought 5 days off us making it back to 25. 

In France they would be disappointed at only having 30 days. 

[Banker]

3 hours ago, Happier diner said:

Just checked. Hasn't changed in all that time. After 12 months Tesco staff get 22 days + public holidays. More than public service workers get here.

But Tesco staff don’t get final salary pensions schemes & nor does anyone else, also the sickness pay entitlement is the best going which is why public sector always have a lot more sickness days than private sector.

[Non-Believer]

22 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

How do you mean? You mean not unusual in civil service? Agreed. But you have to do quite a lot of service to get to 30 days. However, it's not that unusual in private industry either. Granted it's not as common but I have had 30 days in the past. It was with a UK contractor. We got taken over by a US contractor and they bought 5 days off us making it back to 25. 

In France they would be disappointed at only having 30 days. 

But this is what I'm saying. PS employees here are at least the equal of the private sector in this respect, not some hard-done-by bunch with only a pension to make the T&Cs bearable as some were alluding to.

Plus, quite a few of the reductions/changes brought in by PSC terms have since been rescinded as well for various reasons.