Moghrey Mie Posted September 5 Author Share Posted September 5 14 hours ago, Roger Mexico said: There's a difference between waste collection (which LAs do) and waste management, which is split between them and various government departments. This 'consultation' is both useless and insulting. No It's going back to first principles and local authorities should debate those not leave it up to their clerks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 15 hours ago, Roger Mexico said: There's a difference between waste collection (which LAs do) and waste management, which is split between them and various government departments. This 'consultation' is both useless and insulting. My point was if waste collection or management (point taken on the difference) was centralised, there would be some LAs with precious little else to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 58 minutes ago, Moghrey Mie said: No It's going back to first principles and local authorities should debate those not leave it up to their clerks. But as I pointed out earlier, they've been going on about principles and strategies for years. If they haven't worked out what they are by now they never will. This consultations consists of a number of 'statements' with which people are asked if they: Strongly disagree, Disagree, Neither agree or disagree, Agree, Strongly agree, I don’t know or Prefer not to say. These statements are: Do you agree that a Waste Strategy should be determined to move towards a strong and diverse economy and an environment we can be proud of in accordance with Our Island Plan? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should determine how centralising household waste collection services could reduce costs, reduce environmental impact including greenhouse gas emissions and determine appropriate household waste provisions for the Island? Do you agree the Waste Strategy should determine a Waste Reduction Programme to divert products and materials from residual waste and stimulate recycling opportunities for the Island? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should determine ways to increase reuse and recycling of the Island's wastes? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should maximise energy recovery by diverting incinerable wastes to the Energy from Waste facility? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should explore maximising the utilisation of the secondary waste incinerator for self-sufficiency and economic benefit of disposal of the Island's suitable hazardous wastes? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should determine the strategic need to develop new landfill(s), suitably engineered to provide appropriate environmental protection, for waste disposal where recovery (including re-use, recycling and energy recovery) is not reasonably practicable or economically viable? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should determine the legislative interventions likely to be required by the Government to assist implementation of the Waste Strategy. If 1 means anything is asking if we should have a waste strategy. As even chucking all your rubbish in the street is a 'strategy', it's stupid even asking this. 2 confuses collection and management and shouldn't really be here. It appears to assert that centralising collection would produce all sort of wonderful things without actually considering the opposite might be true. 3 and 4 are exactly the same question (waste reduction is different from recycling, but that's not what 3 is about) 3/4 and 5 contradict each other. You can't recycle more stuff and burn it in the incinerator at the same time. I don't know what 6 means even and I'm not sure they do either. Are they saying stuff isn't being burnt there that should be? Or that they want to charge more? Effectively what 3-7 are about is saying is whether a waste strategy should include: recycling, incineration and landfill. Do you need a consultation to determine this? 8 is literally asking "If you need to change the law, should you do it to achieve what you want". Well duh. This is all to produce a new 'strategy' despite having a long list of recent ones. As ever "The purpose of a system is what it does". All this nonsense is not to improve things or change them, it's to keep large numbers of highly paid people in employment while changing very little. There's actually argument for saying that this sort of 'strategy' is meaningless anyway here. Waste management isn't really subject to grand 'principles' that determine everything. It's a matter of optimisation and doing the best (or least worst) thing in the context of the current situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheldon Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 4 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: But as I pointed out earlier, they've been going on about principles and strategies for years. If they haven't worked out what they are by now they never will. This consultations consists of a number of 'statements' with which people are asked if they: Strongly disagree, Disagree, Neither agree or disagree, Agree, Strongly agree, I don’t know or Prefer not to say. These statements are: Do you agree that a Waste Strategy should be determined to move towards a strong and diverse economy and an environment we can be proud of in accordance with Our Island Plan? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should determine how centralising household waste collection services could reduce costs, reduce environmental impact including greenhouse gas emissions and determine appropriate household waste provisions for the Island? Do you agree the Waste Strategy should determine a Waste Reduction Programme to divert products and materials from residual waste and stimulate recycling opportunities for the Island? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should determine ways to increase reuse and recycling of the Island's wastes? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should maximise energy recovery by diverting incinerable wastes to the Energy from Waste facility? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should explore maximising the utilisation of the secondary waste incinerator for self-sufficiency and economic benefit of disposal of the Island's suitable hazardous wastes? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should determine the strategic need to develop new landfill(s), suitably engineered to provide appropriate environmental protection, for waste disposal where recovery (including re-use, recycling and energy recovery) is not reasonably practicable or economically viable? Do you agree that the Waste Strategy should determine the legislative interventions likely to be required by the Government to assist implementation of the Waste Strategy. If 1 means anything is asking if we should have a waste strategy. As even chucking all your rubbish in the street is a 'strategy', it's stupid even asking this. 2 confuses collection and management and shouldn't really be here. It appears to assert that centralising collection would produce all sort of wonderful things without actually considering the opposite might be true. 3 and 4 are exactly the same question (waste reduction is different from recycling, but that's not what 3 is about) 3/4 and 5 contradict each other. You can't recycle more stuff and burn it in the incinerator at the same time. I don't know what 6 means even and I'm not sure they do either. Are they saying stuff isn't being burnt there that should be? Or that they want to charge more? Effectively what 3-7 are about is saying is whether a waste strategy should include: recycling, incineration and landfill. Do you need a consultation to determine this? 8 is literally asking "If you need to change the law, should you do it to achieve what you want". Well duh. This is all to produce a new 'strategy' despite having a long list of recent ones. As ever "The purpose of a system is what it does". All this nonsense is not to improve things or change them, it's to keep large numbers of highly paid people in employment while changing very little. There's actually argument for saying that this sort of 'strategy' is meaningless anyway here. Waste management isn't really subject to grand 'principles' that determine everything. It's a matter of optimisation and doing the best (or least worst) thing in the context of the current situation. TL;DR - the consultation is a complete crock of shit. The truly dispiriting thing is that someone is very proud of it. Probably quite a few people, in fact, as it had to be conceived, drafted, reviewed, approved, and published. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Utter bullcrap. And to think that someone's getting paid to come up with a "consultation" that is akin to a Premier Inn "how did we do?" quality control questionnaire! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 I try and fill in the gov consultations when they come up, this is the worst one I've ever filled in. It's like it was written by AI. Or a fucking moron. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
english zloty Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 24 minutes ago, TheTeapot said: I try and fill in the gov consultations when they come up, this is the worst one I've ever filled in. It's like it was written by AI. Or a fucking moron. That’ll be the new Head then 🤣🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 Rob Callister MHK on Manx Radio scaremongering about redundancies and 'what will happen to all those vehicles'? The consultation is about principles not the details of how the strategy will be carried out and by whom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistercee Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 2 hours ago, Moghrey Mie said: Rob Callister MHK on Manx Radio scaremongering about redundancies and 'what will happen to all those vehicles'? The consultation is about principles not the details of how the strategy will be carried out and by whom. As usual RTK jumps in offering his words of wisdom and overlooking the fact that this Island has to start making radical changes to the "old ways" of doing things as we simply cannot afford the level of local authority / government employees we have at present. He should be embracing rationalisation rather that railing against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 I took the time to fill in the survey, bit labourious and obviously an attempt to allow the Govt to do what they want? Extra comments I made were... How to ensure that rates are actually reduced if centralised? How to ensure the centralised costs are not more that at present ? How would it be paid for? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 36 minutes ago, Kopek said: I took the time to fill in the survey, bit labourious and obviously an attempt to allow the Govt to do what they want? Extra comments I made were... How to ensure that rates are actually reduced if centralised? How to ensure the centralised costs are not more that at present ? How would it be paid for? I suspect by a government levy to the LAs, so don't expect a drop in your rates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mistercee said: As usual RTK jumps in offering his words of wisdom and overlooking the fact that this Island has to start making radical changes to the "old ways" of doing things as we simply cannot afford the level of local authority / government employees we have at present. He should be embracing rationalisation rather that railing against it. You and Callister are making the same mistake from different sides of the argument. You're assuming that centralising waste collection will produce savings/cause redundancies. But you only have to look at the other services that DoI operates to know that this might not be a certainty. Worse and less-responsive services at greater expense and much higher capital costs seems more likely. Edited September 6 by Roger Mexico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 It doesn't make sense for 21 local authorities to be doing their own thing. Most don't do anything to promote the reduction of waste or the recycling of materials. They are happy to carry on collecting and burning it as always. But the world has changed and a modern waste strategy must be environmentally conscious and efficient. It should also consider things like food waste and composting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 It's unlikely that centralisation would result in a massive all island collection depot? More likely the larger LAs would retain the collection with their current depots and vehicles, perhaps some of the smaller LAs being encouraged to contract to a nearby service? The central part would surely be advice on efficiencies and re-cycling and the management of the disposal, export and incineration. As Gladys points out, costs will still be on 'our' rates!!! Who else would pay? The Treasury!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kopek said: It's unlikely that centralisation would result in a massive all island collection depot? More likely the larger LAs would retain the collection with their current depots and vehicles, perhaps some of the smaller LAs being encouraged to contract to a nearby service? The central part would surely be advice on efficiencies and re-cycling and the management of the disposal, export and incineration. As Gladys points out, costs will still be on 'our' rates!!! Who else would pay? The Treasury!!! That's all about the 'how'. The Waste Strategy consultation is about the Principles. What is it we are trying to do? 'Strategy principles are the fundamental rules and guidelines that serve as a foundation for reasoning and decision making about the longer-term direction for an enterprise.' Edited September 6 by Moghrey Mie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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