House of Keys July 23rd

[Moghrey Mie]

https://www.tynwald.org.im/spfile?file=/business/opqp/opqp/2024-PP-0098.pdf

Does Jason know where the bodies are buried?

Farmers don't want to pay for disposal of dead animals.

[Roger Mexico]

This was actually an additional sitting of the Keys, not on the original schedule.  Presumably the idea was to finish the passage of the Assisted Dying Bill through the Keys before the summer break so that they could avoid being lobbied any more about it while on their hols. 

Of course Jason and co insisted on spoiling by asking lots of impudent questions while most of their colleagues wanted to get away for their three month break.  As a result after the first hour (they were in the middle of question 10 of 21) Tim Crookall stood up and proposed that that any remaining questions be changed to written ones.  Watterson had to explain to him that all he needed to do was to oppose the time extension to question time, but Crookall has only been a member of Tynwald for 18 years, so you can't expect him to have learned how things work yet.

So most of the Keys then voted not to extend question time even though they were finished before 4pm.

[The Phantom]

On 7/22/2024 at 5:08 PM, Moghrey Mie said:

 

Farmers don't want to pay for disposal of dead animals.

They used to just bury them themselves, which they have been doing since the dawn of farming.  I don't recall any plagues or pollution locally being caused by the improper disposal of dead livestock. However, Govt told the farmers they have to take them to meat plant.  Then cranked up the fees.  I'm with the farmers on this one. 

[Non-Believer]

44 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

They used to just bury them themselves, which they have been doing since the dawn of farming.  I don't recall any plagues or pollution locally being caused by the improper disposal of dead livestock. However, Govt told the farmers they have to take them to meat plant.  Then cranked up the fees.  I'm with the farmers on this one. 

A monopoly service that they are legally (I think) obliged to make use of, therefore effectively another unavoidable tax that's just been hiked. If the farmers have to pay it then they will pass on the costs to the price of meat to the consumers, many of whom already consider the commodity to be expensive.

The only surprising thing is that the farmers are now in the Treasury sights, Govt usually bends over backwards to give them breaks and accommodate them. Things must be bad...

[Mercenary]

5 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

The only surprising thing is that the farmers are now in the Treasury sights, Govt usually bends over backwards to give them breaks and accommodate them. Things must be bad...

It's probably more the quirk that the Animal Waste Processing Plant (and the associated charges) are under DOI rather than DEFA, with the DOI obviously much less invested in the agricultural industry and have a much greater challenge around their budget.

[Roger Mexico]

44 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

They used to just bury them themselves, which they have been doing since the dawn of farming.  I don't recall any plagues or pollution locally being caused by the improper disposal of dead livestock. However, Govt told the farmers they have to take them to meat plant.  Then cranked up the fees.  I'm with the farmers on this one. 

Everyone else will be relieved to know that farmers don't "have to take them to meat plant".  What they have to is ring up the DoI who will take the carcasses away to be disposed of in Animal Waste Processing Plant (AWPP) which at the bottom of Richmond Hill.  So your burgers are safe.

Anyway here's the answer Moorhouse got from Barber.  The main problem is that to do with trade and having to follow UK/EU standards for good to be accepted

https://tynwald.scorchnetwork.com/?file=/business/listen/AgainFiles/O-202401-1512a.mp3

[The Phantom]

7 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Everyone else will be relieved to know that farmers don't "have to take them to meat plant".  What they have to is ring up the DoI who will take the carcasses away to be disposed of in Animal Waste Processing Plant (AWPP) which at the bottom of Richmond Hill.  So your burgers are safe.

Anyway here's the answer Moorhouse got from Barber.  The main problem is that to do with trade and having to follow UK/EU standards for good to be accepted

https://tynwald.scorchnetwork.com/?file=/business/listen/AgainFiles/O-202401-1512a.mp3

Apologies, my lack of clarity and misunderstanding.  I wasn't suggesting they will be used for meat. More like Govt forces farmers to use Govt run disposal.

[Stu Peters]

2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

This was actually an additional sitting of the Keys, not on the original schedule.  Presumably the idea was to finish the passage of the Assisted Dying Bill through the Keys before the summer break so that they could avoid being lobbied any more about it while on their hols. 

Of course Jason and co insisted on spoiling by asking lots of impudent questions while most of their colleagues wanted to get away for their three month break.  As a result after the first hour (they were in the middle of question 10 of 21) Tim Crookall stood up and proposed that that any remaining questions be changed to written ones.  Watterson had to explain to him that all he needed to do was to oppose the time extension to question time, but Crookall has only been a member of Tynwald for 18 years, so you can't expect him to have learned how things work yet.

So most of the Keys then voted not to extend question time even though they were finished before 4pm.

I think ALL the questions and supplementaries were from those opposed to progressing the AD bill.

[Boo Gay'n]

28 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

I think ALL the questions and supplementaries were from those opposed to progressing the AD bill.

Surely, you are not suggesting that a filibuster may have been planned...?

[Roger Mexico]

One of the minor inconveniences of the extra Keys session was that it screwed up the figures in my report on the most prolific questioners when I thought that was over with July Tynwald.  Never fear I have updated then, though there's no change in position:

	2023-4	2022-3
Moorhouse	181	182
Thomas	130	0
Ashford	105	91
Edge	44	0
Christian	27	28
Glover	24	31
Caine	19	20
Faragher	13	10
Watterson	10	19
Wannenburgh	9	9
Haywood	7	11
Maltby	4	5
Corlett	3	4
Mercer	1	0
Johnston		3
Crookall		4
Sharpe		3
Peters		2
Total	577	422

All the comments and provisos in my previous comment still apply.  Indeed what's noticeable is that with the exception of the two ex-Ministers now freed to be quizzical again, there's very little change from last year among who asks a lot, who a few dozen, and who only a few or none at all.  Nearly 80% of questions come from just four MHKs.

And questions do matter.  You only have to look at any of the media to see how the questions and responses give rise to a high proportion of news stories.  Those who complain on MF about Moorhouse asking so many are the first to sound out on topics he is bringing up[1].  With so little primary legislation being passed, it's also the only regular. way the Keys can hold the government to account.  It also allows them to bring up topics that matter to their constituents and others[2].

 

[1]  I suspect Moorhouse of trawling MF and other sites for topics, certainly both the Manx Rally ones and the obscured signage ones featured here in the run-up.  So it works both ways.

[2]  As I keep on pointing out, the Northside dominance of CoMin means and the convention that Ministers don't ask questions of each other means that if you live there you have to go to an 'outsider' such as Moorhouse of Ashford to raise a topic in Tynwald.  Add to that that Garff and Middle both now have a Minister plus another MHK who hardly ever asks a question and the problem is worse.

[Roger Mexico]

43 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

I think ALL the questions and supplementaries were from those opposed to progressing the AD bill.

The vote isn't publicly available yet, but assuming the 8 who voted against the third reading were the usual opponents (Cannan, Christian, Edge, Glover, Lord-Brennan, Moorhouse, Smith and Thomas) that's not actually true as there were two from Ashford, which hadn't been taken yet.  And of course those people are the ones who ask the vast majority of questions in any case between them (see above), so it's hardly unusual they would do so at the last opportunity to ask an oral question for nearly three months.

But in any case the Keys had managed to get through nearly half the questions in the first hour.  So finishing the rest of them would have only added an extra hour to proceedings and you would be finished at 5pm rather than 4pm.  You poor dears.

In reality it isn't possible to filibuster in the Keys or Tynwald as Standing Orders mean there are limits on how often and long people can speak.  And supplementaries on questions are always limited.  So anyone who believes that there could be an effective conspiracy to block the Bill is simply wrong and has fallen for a ploy from Ministers who want to avoid scrutiny.

[Fred the shred]

Those figures are interesting Edge and Thomas did not to appear to question anything in 22/23 when they were Ministers but now they are out in the cold and not likely to get warm again anytime soon they are full of questions especially Thomas most of them annoying and unnecessary.    Let us hope this pair get kicked out in the next election, neither use nor ornament.    Wouldn’t it be great if some intelligent people with the Island’s interest at heart and fire in their belly stood as candidates.

 

 

 

[Roger Mexico]

25 minutes ago, Fred the shred said:

Those figures are interesting Edge and Thomas did not to appear to question anything in 22/23 when they were Ministers but now they are out in the cold and not likely to get warm again anytime soon they are full of questions especially Thomas most of them annoying and unnecessary.    Let us hope this pair get kicked out in the next election, neither use nor ornament.  

As I said above it's the convention that Ministers don't ask other Ministers questions, I suppose because it would imply they were working in 'silos' (especially if they are).  Caine's questions were all asked before she was a Minister for example.  But Edge and Thomas were among the most persistent questioners in the previous Keys, (as was Ashford before he became a Minister) so they're just behaving in the same way they did before now they are backbenchers again.  The main mystery is why Callister has remained so quiet since his sacking - he used to ask a fair few before he was made Minister, though not as many as those.

[Non-Believer]

35 minutes ago, Fred the shred said:

Those figures are interesting Edge and Thomas did not to appear to question anything in 22/23 when they were Ministers but now they are out in the cold and not likely to get warm again anytime soon they are full of questions especially Thomas most of them annoying and unnecessary.

No, this is why the Tynwald system fails, in not having an official Opposition in order to provide and maintain scrutiny. It's a cosy world in the tent when all you have to do is piss out upon the populace.

What the populace lack is a proper team doing some pissing in. That pissing only happens after some tent-dwellers have been ejected, as the questioning figures clearly prove.

Although sometimes one would wonder at the worth of it all. After all for instance, the DOI (and other depts) have regularly been "savaged" in Tynwald for their endless fuck ups. Yet they're still there, still making their endless fuck ups. Exposés seem to have little effect.

[Gladys]

9 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

As I said above it's the convention that Ministers don't ask other Ministers questions, .....

Is it possibly to create an opposition in the back benchers?  The difficulty with that is that without a set of opposition policies, what you end up with is pointless questions from those who want to be noticed and little challenge from those who aspire to be (back) in the tent.