Super-rich being advised how to avoid Labour tax clampdown, undercover investigation suggests

[WTF]

7 hours ago, Utah 01 said:

Is the Island doing anything to attract HNWs 

as we can't change the weather / facilities / state of the infrastructure i'm not sure what exactly would have people flock here rather than elsewhere

[Non-Believer]

7 hours ago, woolley said:

Why does this matter? In 5 or 10 years, depending on the election period, a single tax capper moving here will contribute between a million and two million in hard cash to Treasury that we wouldn't otherwise have had. Or a jointly assessed couple between two and four million. This is aside from other taxes and charges they will pay. If this is freeloading, we need a lot more freeloaders.

By the time their accountants have minimised their liabilities and assets and maximised their allowances, I doubt that they would be paying anything like that much. Remember old man Baggs gallivanting around Douglas Bay in a motorboat a few years back, boasting that he didn't pay a penny in tax? He won't be alone.

Private tax advisers and accountants are much more fleet of foot and adept at finding loopholes than Governments are in addressing them. 

[Roger Mexico]

9 hours ago, woolley said:

Why does this matter? In 5 or 10 years, depending on the election period, a single tax capper moving here will contribute between a million and two million in hard cash to Treasury that we wouldn't otherwise have had. Or a jointly assessed couple between two and four million. This is aside from other taxes and charges they will pay. If this is freeloading, we need a lot more freeloaders.

Except of course the one thing that has been consistent from the start is that the number of those using the tax cap has remained pretty constant.  So all that the tax cap has done is to deprive the Island of the tax that the HNWIs were quite happy to pay before Bell had his brilliant idea.

[A fool and his money.....]

9 hours ago, woolley said:

Why does this matter? In 5 or 10 years, depending on the election period, a single tax capper moving here will contribute between a million and two million in hard cash to Treasury that we wouldn't otherwise have had. Or a jointly assessed couple between two and four million. This is aside from other taxes and charges they will pay. If this is freeloading, we need a lot more freeloaders.

What we really need is an equitable tax system that's based on what it costs to provide public services.

We've tried the tax dodging model for long enough, and services are a poor shadow of what they used to be and going to hell in a handcart as far as I can see.

We don't need the same tired old, lazy, unimaginative politics that have got us where we are today, we need progressive thinking and to move on. When you're dead lie down.

[WTF]

4 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Except of course the one thing that has been consistent from the start is that the number of those using the tax cap has remained pretty constant.  So all that the tax cap has done is to deprive the Island of the tax that the HNWIs were quite happy to pay before Bell had his brilliant idea.

do you really think it was actually bells idea ?  

[Roger Mexico]

1 minute ago, WTF said:

do you really think it was actually bells idea ?  

Well obviously not.  The "his" was as sarcastic as the "brilliant".  But we've had a long series of politicians who believe that doing whatever the 'clever' people in Athol Street told them to was a route to prosperity for all.  Rather than just some people in Athol Street.  This has currently resulted in a CoMin claiming that subsidising the development of luxury flats is somehow essential.

[Non-Believer]

29 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

We've tried the tax dodging model for long enough, and services are a poor shadow of what they used to be and going to hell in a handcart as far as I can see.

Services are going to hell because the funding and revenue that used to support them is being diverted to the liabilities and debts that Govt has run up and kicked down the road for years previously. Roosting pigeons are expensive things.

[Ringy Rose]

52 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

This has currently resulted in a CoMin claiming that subsidising the development of luxury flats is somehow essential.

We need to put tax up as there’s no money. But here’s a whacking great bung to property developers to build flats that they almost certainly would have built anyway. And won’t be affordable for the people who actually do the grafting in this place.

33 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Services are going to hell because the funding and revenue that used to support them is being diverted to the liabilities and debts that Govt has run up and kicked down the road for years previously

Many of the liabilities arising from various hare-brained schemes that our dim-witted politicians were only too happy to go along with because their mates at the golf club told them to. Like the MUA loans.

Cannan is just another in a long line of low wattage light bulbs who think they’re something because they went to King Bill’s and because Athol Street blows some smoke up their arse.

[woolley]

2 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

By the time their accountants have minimised their liabilities and assets and maximised their allowances, I doubt that they would be paying anything like that much. Remember old man Baggs gallivanting around Douglas Bay in a motorboat a few years back, boasting that he didn't pay a penny in tax? He won't be alone.

Private tax advisers and accountants are much more fleet of foot and adept at finding loopholes than Governments are in addressing them. 

There are no loopholes in the tax cap. If you elect to pay it, you pay it in full. No allowances apply. Deviations once elected are limited. If you fall on hard times or are declared bankrupt, there will be enquiries to substantiate. If you die, you pay in full for the year of death.

https://www.gov.im/media/1368484/gn51-income-tax-cap.pdf

 

[The Phantom]

1 hour ago, Non-Believer said:

By the time their accountants have minimised their liabilities and assets and maximised their allowances, I doubt that they would be paying anything like that much. Remember old man Baggs gallivanting around Douglas Bay in a motorboat a few years back, boasting that he didn't pay a penny in tax? He won't be alone.

Private tax advisers and accountants are much more fleet of foot and adept at finding loopholes than Governments are in addressing them. 

You know the IOM tax cap doesn't work like that?  There aren't allowances.  It's a flat rate. 

11 hours ago, cissolt said:

Is comment about 'employed 20 people...gardeners etc a joke'? Or were you talking to Bassim personally? Or did you read this guardian article? 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/may/02/i-am-moving-tycoon-bassim-haidar-non-dom-tax-status-super-rich-exodus

I assume so. The loss of 20 jobs, or even 200 is probably worth the sacrifice £3.2 billion that could be raised.

 

https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2022/i-September-22/Abolishing-the-non-dom-regime-would-raise-more-than-3.2-billion-each-year-finds-new-report

 

10 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

One of the oldest British traditions is, in the run up to a UK General Election, the rich/celebrities/rich celebrities giving interviews to the press stating that they will be leaving the country if Labour get in.  Either Labour does and they don't leave or Labour doesn't get in and they leave anyway.  This nonsensical ritual has been going on since the 1920s and no one except the press takes it seriously.

The same people also like to give the impression that they're employing enough people to make Downton Abbey look like a bedsit and that whole sectors of the economy rely on them.  In practice, if they do have 20 people working for them, most will be low-paid part-timers working possibly through agencies and almost certainly for other people/companies as well.  If there are a few high-paid specialists, they will likely be as mobile as their employers and just as unlikely to be paying tax.

They're already leaving.  

This guy has multiple properties in the UK.  In addition to the 'property staff' he also has a pilot, cabin crew, PT, chef etc.  He's leaving, some of them will go with him and many of those are actually paid quite well and will contribute their own tax. 

 

9 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Why would you want to? The tax cap means they often pay less tax in percentage terms than you or I. The last thing the island needs is more freeloading whenis.

In the UK just over 50% of people receive more in benefits from the Govt than they pay in tax and the top 10% of tax payers account for just over 50% of all the tax collected. 

Yeah we definitely don't need more people who would be paying £200k in tax.  

Do you honestly believe that rich people won't spend more in the economy than an average Joe, or that they will some how consume more govt services or benefits?

 

[woolley]

1 hour ago, A fool and his money..... said:

What we really need is an equitable tax system that's based on what it costs to provide public services.

We've tried the tax dodging model for long enough, and services are a poor shadow of what they used to be and going to hell in a handcart as far as I can see.

We don't need the same tired old, lazy, unimaginative politics that have got us where we are today, we need progressive thinking and to move on. When you're dead lie down.

So find something else before junking what we have. It needs to be something that will bring in hundreds of millions a year. Good luck.

[The Phantom]

12 hours ago, Ringy Rose said:

They want all the benefits of living in the UK but don’t want to pay for the benefits of living in the UK. Lovely people. I’m sure they’ll adore Dubai along with all the Russian gangsters.

I’m sure whoever buys their houses will also need gardeners and cleaners.

Looks like you didn't read my post.  The particular individuals I'm aware of are moving to Italy or Greece, which are in the process of bringing in Non-Dom like rules to specifically attract these people.  Many more, such as Portugal already have them in place.  All at the same time the UK is trying to remove it. 

43 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Services are going to hell because the funding and revenue that used to support them is being diverted to the liabilities and debts that Govt has run up and kicked down the road for years previously. Roosting pigeons are expensive things.

The revenue that used to support it was from the VAT share that got slashed.  Nothing has really been done to plug that gap and in fact, the Govt is actively expanding that gap with hare-brained infrastructure schemes and staffing bloat. 

7 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

Cannan is just another in a long line of low wattage light bulbs who think they’re something because they went to King Bill’s and because Athol Street blows some smoke up their arse.

I can assure you, there are few on Athol St blowing smoke up his arse.  The overall sentiment with the Govt is the same as on here, albeit it mainly focuses on red tape that is succesfully making it more difficult to do business here than in most other jurisdictions.   The gap between the business benefits versus the pain the ass factor of being here is rapidly closing. 

[Non-Believer]

5 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

The revenue that used to support it was from the VAT share that got slashed.  Nothing has really been done to plug that gap and in fact, the Govt is actively expanding that gap with hare-brained infrastructure schemes and staffing bloat.

The liabilities have both grown and been failed to be addressed in timely fashion, in their time. The PS pensions timebomb was known about as far back as 2006 and saw no action until 2014; even then that action involved kicking the can down the road by dumping the responsibility on future generations of employee and the future and current taxpayers.

I honestly don't think that a lot of people realise just how much money is being diverted into Govt keeping itself and past employees comfortable.

[Ringy Rose]

2 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Looks like you didn't read my post.  The particular individuals I'm aware of are moving to Italy or Greece, which are in the process of bringing in Non-Dom like rules to specifically attract these people.

I’m sure they are. And last year they were moving to Dubai.  And the year before they were moving to Jersey. And they year before that they were moving to…

I’m sure they will love it in Greece, with its famously stable political system, or in Italy with its famously tough line on corruption. I hear the ‘nDragheta are lovely this time of year.

16 minutes ago, woolley said:

So find something else before junking what we have. It needs to be something that will bring in hundreds of millions a year. Good luck.

This is the dilemma. As a percentage of income, those on the tax cap will be paying very little compared to my 22%. On the face of it it’s not fair. But their 1% is worth £200k a year; my 22% wouldn’t raise that in 35 years. Sometimes you just have to be pragmatic.

That said, I think the cap should have been upped to £250k when they put 2% on income tax for us plebs. Sometimes it’s about the optics.

4 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

The overall sentiment with the Govt is the same as on here, albeit it mainly focuses on red tape that is succesfully making it more difficult to do business here than in most other jurisdictions

Athol Street have been saying that for 50 years though. 

Most of the “red tape” is AML/CFT related, as it long has been. And removing it isn’t really in the government’s gift, not unless they fancy being on the MONEYVAL naughty step. When Gibraltar got put on the naughty step it cost them 15% of their GDP.

 

[Non-Believer]

24 minutes ago, woolley said:

There are no loopholes in the tax cap. If you elect to pay it, you pay it in full. No allowances apply. Deviations once elected are limited. If you fall on hard times or are declared bankrupt, there will be enquiries to substantiate. If you die, you pay in full for the year of death.

https://www.gov.im/media/1368484/gn51-income-tax-cap.pdf

 

You're not cynical enough Woolster. They said that about the first tax cap arrangement too until they found out that it was being circumvented by some HNWs who were even trying to avoid £125k.