Southport Stabbings

[Non-Believer]

37 minutes ago, HeliX said:

The UK definitely looks unsafe from where I'm sitting. Seems to be big groups of violent yobs going round thumping people, flipping cars over and setting fire to police stations. 

I'm not convinced they look Muslim, but I haven't asked them.

Very selective as usual, we'll ignore the grooming gangs and regular stabbings and occasional murder on race/culture grounds then.

[HeliX]

5 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Very selective as usual, we'll ignore the grooming gangs and regular stabbings and occasional murder on race/culture grounds then.

London has a significant gang violence problem, but it doesn't tend to spill over and make London unsafe for non-gang members often. I don't think anyone is ignoring grooming gangs.

[HeteroErectus]

11 minutes ago, HeliX said:

London has a significant gang violence problem, but it doesn't tend to spill over and make London unsafe for non-gang members often.

Strongly disagree.

[Chinahand]

Humans are very poor at judging the risks of low probability high impact events. 

Statistics for most are huge tragedies for the few. 

Most of the UK is safe, until it is not and tragedy stalks even the smallest towns let alone our cities. 

[Gladys]

31 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Very selective as usual, we'll ignore the grooming gangs and regular stabbings and occasional murder on race/culture grounds then.

Nobody is denying there are bad people no matter what their race, religion or culture is. 

[Non-Believer]

19 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Nobody is denying there are bad people no matter what their race, religion or culture is. 

Neither am I. The point is that some areas of the UK are are a tinderbox of racial and cultural tension and we are seeing that boiling over at the moment.

The crux point of this (IMHO) is integration. The Windrush generation (for example) arrived here and brought their culture which enriched society but the point is, they integrated in doing so.

However we are seeing culture arriving now which has and never did have any intention of integrating. It wishes to remain separate, with its own culture, customs and religion and in some areas aspires to exist under its own law. Indeed, its philosophy is expansion and in the extreme interpretations, non-tolerance of other cultures and religions. A couple of years ago, there were instances of Asian youths "patrolling" areas of central London telling British women to cover up their arms and legs. Much of this is in conflict with our society's values, the same values that welcomed them and their circumstances and culture in the first instance.

Many elements of UK traditional society now feel threatened and swamped by this and in the extreme examples this is manifested by what we are seeing in Southport and now elsewhere.

[HeliX]

22 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

which has and never did have any intention of integrating

I see this claim a lot, but practically what does it even mean? Most native people I know don't "integrate" into British culture, they just keep themselves to themselves and don't really engage in religion, pubs, clubs etc.

[Gladys]

11 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Neither am I. The point is that some areas of the UK are are a tinderbox of racial and cultural tension and we are seeing that boiling over at the moment.

The crux point of this (IMHO) is integration. The Windrush generation (for example) arrived here and brought their culture which enriched society but the point is, they integrated in doing so.

However we are seeing culture arriving now which has and never did have any intention of integrating. It wishes to remain separate, with its own culture, customs and religion and in some areas aspires to exist under its own law. Indeed, its philosophy is expansion and in the extreme interpretations, non-tolerance of other cultures and religions. A couple of years ago, there were instances of Asian youths "patrolling" areas of central London telling British women to cover up their arms and legs. Much of this is in conflict with our society's values, the same values that welcomed them and their circumstances and culture in the first instance.

Many elements of UK traditional society now feel threatened and swamped by this and in the extreme examples this is manifested by what we are seeing in Southport and now elsewhere.

But are immigrants not integrating in a significant way?  Sure, they want to keep their culture, but does that preclude integration?   Are the children not usually educated in mainstream state schools?  Do many of them not work in regular industries?  Do they not use all the state resources and contribute to them?  

Yes, there are extremists, on both sides,  and there have been instances of trying to impose their cultural norms on the wider community, but is that really so frequent as to be a real threat?  If that happens you would expect the authorities to act, if they don't or are not seen to, that could well be interpreted by the wider community as acceptance.  But haven't the police and other authorities have been working with leaders in immigrant communities to ensure that sort of stuff doesn't happen?  From my own experience, most immigrants I have encountered have been reasonably well integrated without losing their own identity. 

I am sure that there have been similar instances of attacks because of a variation of culture in the other direction too.

So, even if we accept that a failure to integrate has caused a lot of this, what is the answer?  Mass deportation? 

 

[Non-Believer]

I don't know what the answer is Gladys but extremism from any quarter isn't going to help the situation. It will only be resolved by agreeing to recognise and agree to common principles. Unfortunately,one of those extremist quarters is not given to recognition of common principles.

[HeliX]

5 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

I don't know what the answer is Gladys but extremism from any quarter isn't going to help the situation. It will only be resolved by agreeing to recognise and agree to common principles. Unfortunately,one of those extremist quarters is not given to recognition of common principles.

No extremist quarters are given to recognition of common principles, that's sort of the point of extremism.

[Gladys]

9 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

I don't know what the answer is Gladys but extremism from any quarter isn't going to help the situation. It will only be resolved by agreeing to recognise and agree to common principles. Unfortunately,one of those extremist quarters is not given to recognition of common principles.

I would say no extremist quarter will recognise and agree to common principles - it is not within their thinking to do so, or they wouldn't be extremists. 

Generally, all communities largely abide by the common principles of our society and do largely integrate.  But does that mean they should also renounce their own culture?  It only comes into conflict when extremists become involved, as we have seen.  The problem with extremism is they cannot be reasonable and compromise.  The other problem is that extremists are also evangelical.

ETA Cross posted with HeliX

 

Edited August 3 by Gladys

[hoopsaa]

4 hours ago, Chinahand said:

John Bird, who founded the Big Issue, warned about trendy lefties romanticising the working class saying: "The working class is violent and abusive, they beat their wives and I hate their culture."

He was wrong to over generalise but his words have stayed with me over the years.

The reaction to the murder of these little girls is not the finest hour for the white British Working Class. 

John Bird can fuck off then. What a stupid thing to say. On a par with 'all Muslims are rapists'.

Surprised you posted that, tbh, it tells us more about his, and your, 'ism's'

[hoopsaa]

3 hours ago, Gladys said:

But are the concerns valid in the first place or have they been seeded by simple bigotry?  Yes, there are many people feeling left behind and disadvantaged (whether real or not), but has the real cause been identified, or is it that an external 'bogeyman' has been targeted who everyone can latch onto?

What exactly are the disadvantages being suffered and why are they suffering them? 

Funnily enough, you don't often see the really disadvantaged -  homeless, disabled, stateless - riotting. 

 

 

I would say there are definite, legitimate concerns over the net rate of immigration, and how it intertwines with so many other aspects of life - eg housing supply.

The people smashing and burning their way around town centres at the moment are, in my view, the government's happy idiots - they've managed to move the narrative away from these legitimate concerns and on to their own behaviour, and made it easier for 'the left' (lazy shorthand, I know)to tar anyone who raises these concerns with the racist brush.

Mind you, no-one was going to listen anyway, they just stick their heads in the sand and hope that, somehow, it'll just turn out alright. Hopefully it will, but I doubt it.

[Non-Believer]

2 hours ago, HeliX said:

No extremist quarters are given to recognition of common principles, that's sort of the point of extremism.

Yes....but we are comparing the extremism of a couple of hundred people rioting and throwing bricks (which is not acceptable and cannot be condoned) vs the extremism that led to the creation of the Islamic State and the excesses that it engaged in, to include mass murder/displacement of other religions (and even different strands of the same religion) and public executions forcibly witnessed by children and broadcast on SM.

Also worth remembering that plenty in this country were sympathetic to it to the degree that they left to join it, some with notoriety. Some still call for the Islamic State's "laws" to be applied in the UK.

UK extremism pales when compared with that.

[manxman1980]

4 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Yes....but we are comparing the extremism of a couple of hundred people rioting and throwing bricks (which is not acceptable and cannot be condoned) vs the extremism that led to the creation of the Islamic State and the excesses that it engaged in, to include mass murder/displacement of other religions (and even different strands of the same religion) and public executions forcibly witnessed by children and broadcast on SM.

Also worth remembering that plenty in this country were sympathetic to it to the degree that they left to join it, some with notoriety. Some still call for the Islamic State's "laws" to be applied in the UK.

UK extremism pales when compared with that.

The UK is not an Islamic State by any stretch of the imagination and only a tiny percentage of people left the UK to support ISIS.  Many of those that did were extremists or people who had become radicalised.

Extremists and radicalisation are not limited to Islam.  

The other point to stress, particularly in relation to the awful events in Southport, is that we don't know the faith (if he has one) of the attacker.  The reaction we are seeing was originally driven by actual fake news which said it was an immigrant just off the boats and that they were Muslim.  That has now moved on to be general anger at immigration.

I would point out that before Brexit most immigrants were from the EU, however, that was viewed as "unfair" and post Brexit we now apply the same rules to everyone.  The "illegal" immigration realistically has not changed apart from the fact that the UK cannot now send them back as it has left the EU and the agreements that allowed the UK Government to do that.  This just shows that those who were concerned about immigration were misled by the Brexit campaign and are now angry about it.

If we really want to get immigration, and particularly "illegal" immigration sorted out then we need to create safe routes for asylum seekers to apply and be processed.  We need tackle the people smugglers.  We need to increase foreign aid (whilst avoiding corruption).  We need to address the global challenges, like climate change and rising sea levels, that are going to result in even more migration.

At the same time we need to tackle the issue of deprivation in the UK.  We need to stop pretending that everyone on benefits are scroungers and miscreants.  We need to provide housing, better public services and better access to education.