Southport Stabbings

[Gladys]

5 minutes ago, HeliX said:

The French absolutely do need to be doing more to stop the small boats. Perhaps there's some way we could have more bargaining power and collaboration with France. Some sort of Union?

What, a kind of union of European countries? 

[Albert Tatlock]

26 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

I believe everyone posting here acknowledges that there has been a chronic lack of investment into public services in the UK.  

This has been the result of 14 years of austerity and before that general cuts in public services.

What the UK and Isle of Man populations don't understand is that tax increases are required to fund it.  

No politicians will speak the truth on that because it won't win them votes.

 

 

Not specifically in response to you but more a general observation is that we have just seen an election focused on immigration.  

That was largely the Tory and Reform Parties but Labour weren't much better.

Tax rises aren't the answer. The people have had austerity and tax rises...IOM government's turn to cut its bloated cloth.

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Tax rises aren't the answer. The people have had austerity and tax rises...IOM government's turn to cut its bloated cloth.

We could off a couple million pensioners?

[Gladys]

Just now, Albert Tatlock said:

Tax rises aren't the answer. The people have had austerity and tax rises...IOM government's turn to cut its bloated cloth.

Agreed, but there also has to be an understanding that government can't do everything.  How many times do we hear, 'why don’t they?' or 'they should provide ..'.  Take the IOMSPC, people asking for reduced inward fares, or residents' fares.

We really need smaller government with a commensurate expectation of what government can and should be doing. 

There needs to be a focus on what is really needed, not what sops demand. There are vital services, after that really is it for government  to provide?

[John Wright]

50 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

A few weeks back now (pre the rioting, obviously) I was watching a news interview (Sky) with a now-retired guy who had been near the top of the UK Border Force.

He was quite forthright in his views and I suspect that many with real-world experience would agree with him. In his opinion, 75%+ of UK illegal immigrants were not seeking asylum from anything other than the economic woes of their own countries; i.e. they are economic migrants.

He pointed out that they had already passed through several "safe" countries in order to get to Britain where genuine refugees could have previously registered their status. That there are available, though lengthy, channels open for legitimate immigration into Britain that these people choose to ignore which obviously raises questions as to their motives. Especially given that these channels cost an individual less than is being paid to the smuggling gangs.

His solution to this, from the top of the Border Force? Stiffen up the borders including Northern France. Stop making it attractive to come here; stop the benefits and handouts on arrival. Open proper holding and detention camps and increase the resources for processing claims and returning people from whence they came promptly if they do not have legitimate claim to enter UK.

So from the horse's mouth so's to speak - Stop the UK being seen as the soft touch land of milk and honey and the problem will diminish.

 

Problem with most of that is that what this guy said isn’t true or isn’t practically achievable.

It may be true they come from countries with economic woes. But often that coincides with oppressive regimes or war zones.

The international treaties governing refugee status don’t say, and never have said, you must claim asylum in the first safe country. You can go to wherever you can get to. And where you want to get to is likely to be somewhere you’ve got family and contacts and where your schoolboy language means it’ll be easier. They’ll have learned English, not French ( unless they’re from French sub Saharan Africa ) or German.

He's also ignoring the fact that a million plus arrive in Europe annually. 30,000 max arrive in UK by irregular routes. It’s a tiny proportion.

There are no realistic legitimate channels to get to the UK. They’ll never get a visa, even if they can apply. They’ve got to get to the UK to start with. As for cost, well, even if you’re coming from France as a French national the cost will be £10,000 to £15,000 ( health and other charges )  and you have to have a job paying £30,000+, that’s even if you’re married to a Brit.

You can only stiffen the borders in Northern France if you have agreement with the French bilaterally, or the EU multilaterally. 

They don’t get benefits. Crappy hotel rooms, or camps, or B&B. Britannia Group Hotels are making a fortune. And a few pounds a day for meals. It’s not a land of milk & honey. What they actually get is £49.18 for each person in the household. This is to pay for things like food, clothing and toiletries. That allowance is loaded onto an ASPEN  debit card each week.

Fully agree with faster, more efficient processing. Not sure it should be in UK. You can’t deport if their application fails. There’s no send back agreement, with anyone. And the French can’t police every mile or kilometre of the channel coast, and the Brit Navy can’t cross into French waters to intercept, and there aren’t enough navy ships or men to police the mid line. Even if there were you can’t push the boats back into French waters. It’s against international maritime law, the law of the sea, and the UN refugee treaty.

So, two things to draw from that.

Government needs to be transparent about what it cannot do and stop building up false expectations, on which it will inevitably fail.

interception and processing must be at or before entry into Europe and that needs multi lateral or bilateral  agreements and agreement to take a share.

[manxman1980]

46 minutes ago, Gladys said:

But do illegal immigrants really get handouts and benefits?  There seems to be a lot of conflicting commentary on that aspect.

No, they don't get big handouts or benefits.

They get a tiny allowance to "live" on but they have no access to other public funds.

Even people arriving on Visas will routinely have a statement on their visa saying they have "no recourse to public funds".

27 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Tax rises aren't the answer. The people have had austerity and tax rises...IOM government's turn to cut its bloated cloth.

Well it's a good thing these murders and riots are happening in the UK. We live a sheltered life here and whilst the UK isn't as bad as is being portrayed crime and poverty are more of an issue. 

Take your issue with the IOM Government elsewhere. 

Austerity, and a desire to embrace Public-Private Partnerships in the UK has seriously damaged public services and has seen money leaving those services to enter the Private sector.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, HeliX said:

The French absolutely do need to be doing more to stop the small boats. Perhaps there's some way we could have more bargaining power and collaboration with France. Some sort of Union?

Never worked before, and if I were the French I'd be encouraging them to leave too. Totally the UK's problem for creating a pull factor over decades.

Edited August 6 by woolley

[woolley]

1 hour ago, Gladys said:

What, a kind of union of European countries? 

Yep. The ones that are all arguing among themselves about how to distribute the ones coming over the Med.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, Gladys said:

But do illegal immigrants really get handouts and benefits?  There seems to be a lot of conflicting commentary on that aspect.

They don't live on fresh air.

[FatRoundMiddle]

3 minutes ago, woolley said:

Totally the UK's problem for creating a pull factor over decades.

Do you mean a being a long established multicultural society that understands it's place in a world based on a  long history of exploitation or that a load of fat lazy tories just want cheap labour so they can keep on fattening.

[woolley]

10 minutes ago, FatRoundMiddle said:

Do you mean a being a long established multicultural society that understands it's place in a world based on a  long history of exploitation or that a load of fat lazy tories just want cheap labour so they can keep on fattening.

Yes.

[woolley]

12 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

Belfast rioters up the stakes by using petrol bombs....

They have more experience in the field.

[manxman1980]

24 minutes ago, woolley said:

They don't live on fresh air.

They don't get an awful lot though and as they cannot work there are very few options for them.

A simple solution would be to grant temporary work visas.  Under the current Visa arrangements UK employers are responsible for notifying the Government of any unexpected absences, change of address or any other change of circumstance.   Allowing people to work would also help them integrate.   A much better and more humane solution than sticking them in "hotels" and on barges while hoping for the best.

7 minutes ago, woolley said:

Yes.

Glad you have seen reason on those points 

[woolley]

8 hours ago, Chinahand said:

There is then even more anger at, mainly but not entirely false claims, that these people also do not respect local girls with claims of sexual assault.

Not entirely false? Claims of sexual assault?

Rife and endemic for many years in various towns - rape and sexual assault of teenagers by grooming gangs of middle-aged Pakistani men who saw them as fair game. A blind eye turned by cowardly authorities and "liberals" at all levels afraid of being accused of racism, the trick that has closed down rational debate on the subject of immigration since the 1960s, so that only the extremists will operate in that space. It took a British Asian Muslim to call them all out.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/northern-agenda-towns-in-denial-24741831

[FatRoundMiddle]

5 minutes ago, woolley said:

Not entirely false? Claims of sexual assault?

Rife and endemic for many years in various towns - rape and sexual assault of teenagers by grooming gangs of middle-aged Pakistani men who saw them as fair game. A blind eye turned by cowardly authorities and "liberals" at all levels afraid of being accused of racism, the trick that has closed down rational debate on the subject of immigration since the 1960s, so that only the extremists will operate in that space. It took a British Asian Muslim to call them all out.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/northern-agenda-towns-in-denial-24741831

So you think that nasty bunch of thugs at Rotherham don't engage in sexual assault?