Amadeus Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 lfc 84 - would you care to reproduce the 737 performance data which limits the Take Off Weight on any route Easy could possibly have contemplated operating off the Island? With bated breath........ Ok, I'm not lfc84, but it seems that his argument might be correct: SqueasyJet operates Boeing 737-700s (as far as I'm aware), a relatively advanced and powerful jet with a maximum take-off weight of 144.500lb or 65.544kg. Boeing's performance chart (pdf) for the 737-600 (which is slightly lower performing, but the 737 700 can take more passengers and is heavier - so I believe these two are comparable for the purpose of this exercise) gives a takeoff runway length requirement of around: 8800 feet at a maximum takeoff weight of 144.500lb 5300 feet at a medium takeoff weight of 125.000lb These data are based on a standard day (+15C) at sea level, zero wind, zero runway gradient, a dry runway and no air bleed from the engines for the aircon, with the engines firing at 19.500lb and the flaps at 10. Ronaldsway runway is only 5751ft long, so I could imagine that a fully loaded 737-700 might have problems taking off or landing - maybe it's ok in perfect conditions, but taking into account the constant wind and often adverse weather conditions over here, I could see some pilots raising concerns, especially as every airline wants a full plane all the time. An article from iomguide.com about the Tenerife flight in 2004 seems to partly support this argument. Even if it's really only an excuse for Swellios not to come here, at least it's a reasonably good one... References on the web: Ronaldsway Airport Details Boeing 737-700 specs Boeing 737-600 specs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 ah Amadeus I love it when that happens :-) anyhoo... all I have to bring to the table is filthy manx rumour but I was under the impression there is some amount of turmoil down Euromanx as perfectly profitable routes have been shut down for no good reason.... coupled with their inability to have a flight leave on time it seems like you're paying through the nose for no good reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah 01 Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Amadeus Thanks for the data. 'especially as every airline wants a full plane all the time' is precisely what Easy or Ryanair or anybody else will never have operating out of the Island. The demographics are easy (excuse the pun) in that there are not enough people here to fill any operator's aircraft (apart from occasional peak periods). And it is because there will never be full 737s of any variant going to any destinations which require full tanks that makes the Island's runway perfectly suitable for any day-to-day routes that Easy could possibly have contemplated (if they ever did in reality) running. BA have run the occasional 737 in here from LGW and BMI operate A321s in to Belfast City (1820m) several times a day - not load restricted because it only needs a dribble of fuel to LHR. Rhumsaa The object of an airline is to make money and if a route is making money then the route will be retained. Unless the Euromanx management are mad, one can only assume that the routes which have been axed were not making money. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Well yes I made that assumption but then without figures neither of us has a solid answer I grant you that all I have is rumour and tall tales and I would indeed logically follow your chain of thought but the accompanying tale is of disbelief by many that these choices have been made - the fact they were making money shocking people even more.... maybe the rumours are just plain wrong or maybe Euromanx have some grand scheme in the pipeline or maybe they are logistical morons - based on their current "flight on time" record that option holds some sway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Thanks for the data. 'especially as every airline wants a full plane all the time' is precisely what Easy or Ryanair or anybody else will never have operating out of the Island. The demographics are easy (excuse the pun) in that there are not enough people here to fill any operator's aircraft (apart from occasional peak periods). A 737 would be full every time it flew if it left on time, arrived on time, and was priced at £20. Isn't that what Easyjet would offer? I'd fly across a few times a month at those prices, not a couple of times a year at the vastly overpriced costs I pay now. If you want primary school economics, then it's quite simple to see that if you lower the price, more people will use it. Sure, they may not make any more money than before, but they wouldn't be making any less and they wouldn't have to abandon routes because there aren't enough flyers. Just because the incumbant operators are incapable of running an effective airline that isn't priced at extortionate rates, doesn't mean competitors should be prevented from coming in to do the job properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah 01 Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 ans No, it is the reality of airline economics which escapes you and it is thanks to the great myth of low-cost fares as marketed by the likes of Easy and Ryanair which are to blame. A 737 full of £20 fares is a loser. The cost of operating an aircraft is fixed and if you are paying £20 the person next to you is probably paying £40 and the person 3 rows down is paying £100. To return to primary school the yield (ie total dosh) from the passenger load must equal or exceed aircraft operating cost. That is why an aircraft can be full but still lose money. The reason why Easy etc make money is because there is such a wide variation in fares on board and it is the give away fares which grab the headlines. You can lower the price all you wish to but, as I said, the demographics of this relativley small Island popualtion means that aircraft cannot be filled even if the seats were free. Low-cost airlines rely on massive throughput of passengers AND THEY JUST DON'T EXIST ON THE ISLE OF MAN - aaaargh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanna Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 For every ticket that is sold at 20quid someone else is paying 120 quid. so you still wouldnt fill a 737. But still, even if you sold every seat on a 737 at 20 quid then flew it to lgw it wouldnt make a profit. Easyjet knew they would have to take the complete london market to even have a remote chance of making a profit with a big jet. Too much risk and Easyjet do not do risks. (ps they fly 737-300s, 737-700s and A319) Edit : Dam beat me to it Utah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 A 737 full of £20 fares is a loser. EasyJet run an awful lot of losing flights then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScope Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Maybe the government should subsidise air fares? You'd think that if they're going to make it too expensive for us all to live here, they might make it cheaper for us to escape. Yeah yeah I know, pure pie in the sky. Mere conjecture. No need to hit back with an essay explaining why its not possible etc etc. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 They can't subsidise air fares and bail out every other failure too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScope Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 They can't subsidise air fares and bail out every other failure too... Yeah fair play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanna Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Manx gov had the chance to subsidise the IOM-LHW route many moons ago. They declined and we all know what happened. Dont the Manx Gov pay for the Linkspan for the Steam Packet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karellen Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 the "government" doesnt have any money to subsidise fares. All the government's money belongs to you and I as taxpayers. So if it did subsidise flights, we'd be paying for those subsidies anyway, so where is the benefit? The way that the government could help would be by reducing the tax on flights. Ans talks of paying a £20 fare, but add the tax onto that and it would become a £60 or £70 flight which is what we pay now on many flights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah 01 Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Spanna - sorry for stealing your thunder. ans - please read my post which explains how the lo-cos make money. They do not operate flights with all seats at £20. Karellen - I believe that most of the 'taxes' paid go to Gordon Brown, closely followed by the aiports and of course the airlines levying their 'fuel surcharges'. I am reliably told the Ronaldsway is one of the most expensive airports in the UK in terms of landing fees and handling charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 They do not operate flights with all seats at £20. Yes, they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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