A fool and his money..... Posted August 29 Author Share Posted August 29 27 minutes ago, Chinahand said: I'm all in favour of progressive taxation, but to tax education is in my view fundamentally wrong. We have possible the least progressive tax system in the world. A minimum wage earner can potentially be paying top rate income tax while an extremely rich tax capper would be paying a much lower rate. Yet there's not a peep out of you. At the first mention of taxing the school fees of a tiny minority of the richest parents on and off the island we get several pages of passionate argument which often defies logic. If you really cared about choice in education, a more progressive tax system would allow many more people to afford it. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 59 minutes ago, Harry Lamb said: KWC should be able to recoup some of the VAT from their eligible spending, I believe. KWC will be able to but the fee payers will pay the full 20%, that is the purpose of VAT, the end user pays! With 150 staff to 600 students, perhaps that is where the college could save some money? No, I don't know what all the staff do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 @Two-lane I've already said there are brilliant people everywhere ... well done to your kids, you must be proud of them ... there are many brilliant teachers in the state system and many good schools. But also there are many people who are let down by state education. I don't think it is a matter of just genes at all. It is giving kids an environment they can thrive in. I think there is a lot of evidence that public schools are better at doing this than state ones, though of course there are no guarantees in life and we all know public school kids who have wasted the huge commitment their parents have provided them. Also public school doesn't work for everyone either. The issue is the principle that there is nothing wrong with providing your child with an education you think is worth paying for and the government shouldn't be taxing this societal good. I don't agree with a tax credit for a parent to send their kids to a private school, why should someone who doesn't have sufficient income, but is using savings to pay for someone be disadvantaged. I do think a voucher system would be a good thing and radically change the education system, giving parents choice, but suspect little c conservatism will make it very unlikely. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A fool and his money..... Posted August 29 Author Share Posted August 29 5 minutes ago, Chinahand said: @Two-lane The issue is the principle that there is nothing wrong with providing your child with an education you think is worth paying for and the government shouldn't be taxing this societal good. How can it be a societal good if it's restricted to a tiny proportion of society? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 14 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said: We have possible the least progressive tax system in the world. A minimum wage earner can potentially be paying top rate income tax while an extremely rich tax capper would be paying a much lower rate. Yet there's not a peep out of you. Get over yourself. The island by being able to control its tax system is a far far more vibrant place than it would be if it had the same tax system as the UK. Arran has a population of only 5K, Angelsey is bigger, but median weekly earnings are 45% higher here (£422 Angelsey, £613 IoM). This is again typical socialism, you'd rather depopulate and impoverish than use the tax system to allow the Isle of Man flourish. As ever there is nuance here - if I was dictator for a day I agree I think I'd alter tax caps, but I quite definitely don't think the Island should be bullied internationally for the choices it makes in how to run its tax system and for all our harping about the competence of our government it actually has been pretty successful at providing an economy and thus the money to pay for government services. That advantages everyone. Bringing it back to King Bills, successful people want a good private school locally. Having KWC is a tiny, but not totally irrelevant reason that the island can attract people who would not usually expect to live on a windswept island in the Irish Sea. If it goes it will be missed. I fundamentally disagree with taxing educational services and the fewer people at King Bills the lower quality it will be. It isn't far from being too small to be sustainable. I hope this price increase isn't the straw that breaks the camels back. As someone has already said, selling the Buchan will give them some breathing space, but lets no pretend that burning the furniture is a sustainable method of heating the house. The governors are rightly nervous. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 25 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said: How can it be a societal good if it's restricted to a tiny proportion of society? Because of the ideas and contribution the well educated provide, obviously. The most important effect of technology … is not the minting of more millionaires, but the creation of a continual stream of new ideas and products that are quickly enjoyed by everyone. … These ideas — not the scarce material resources required to make a tablet casing or to carry packets of information from place to place — constitute most of the value added to our lives by the gadgets in our hands. Economic value is thus increasingly created not by material things but by the information that arranges the material. And information can be shared equally in ways that material goods simply cannot. As Thomas Jefferson famously put it, "He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me." In the information age, we enjoy ever-greater access to a common pool of ideas that generates more value and consumption for all, substantially tempering the effect of technology's differential boost to incomes. This shift has important implications for our understanding of inequality. Material resources are zero-sum: Five different people cannot all own the same barrel of crude oil or the same hectare of land. … One barrel of crude cannot simultaneously heat thousands of homes and power millions of cars on different continents. Ideas and information, however, are radically different. An infinite number of people can access the same information and then use it in untold numbers of different applications all at the same time. And the accelerating pace of technological change drives down the costs of these information-based products — so far down indeed that some products (like many computer applications and a growing portion of online-education offerings) quickly become essentially free. The fact that ideas can be shared equally in a way that material goods cannot, and the fact that technology increasingly makes ideas the drivers of our society and economy, means that our circumstances are more equal than the conventional income measures would suggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 15 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Because of the ideas and contribution the well educated provide, obviously. Imagine the societal good if that wasn't just limited to the children of the fortunate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lamb Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 56 minutes ago, Kopek said: KWC will be able to but the fee payers will pay the full 20%, that is the purpose of VAT, the end user pays! With 150 staff to 600 students, perhaps that is where the college could save some money? No, I don't know what all the staff do! KWC does not have to pass on the full impact of the VAT to parents, because they can recoup some of the money. They have so many staff so that they can have smaller class sizes and hence better results. The state system also could achieve better results with the same spending per pupil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 (edited) 7 minutes ago, HeliX said: Imagine the societal good if that wasn't just limited to the children of the fortunate. Certainly, I've mentioned repeatedly the issues with state education, suggested vouchers would improve choice and access. But the idea taxing public schools are going to bring you to utopia is silly. You've made it quite clear you think this policy is ok because you disagree with people choosing to educate their children as they wish. We fundamentally disagree on that. Edited August 29 by Chinahand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 5 minutes ago, HeliX said: Imagine the societal good if that wasn't just limited to the children of the fortunate. How are they fortunate if they’ve worked extremely hard to fund their children’s education? Suppose your fortunate as you’ve fed your children and presumably clothed them unless you went to food bank etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 1 minute ago, Harry Lamb said: KWC does not have to pass on the full impact of the VAT to parents, because they can recoup some of the money. They have so many staff so that they can have smaller class sizes and hence better results. The state system also could achieve better results with the same spending per pupil. Not many of the inputs are reclaimable. It's mainly wages etc. Being able to claim back some of the inputs will marginally reduce costs, but it isn't going to be significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A fool and his money..... Posted August 29 Author Share Posted August 29 5 minutes ago, Banker said: How are they fortunate if they’ve worked extremely hard to fund their children’s education? Suppose your fortunate as you’ve fed your children and presumably clothed them unless you went to food bank etc. Hard work is not exclusive to rich people. Many people work extremely hard, yet could not afford to privately educated their children. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 7 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Certainly, I've mentioned repeatedly the issues with state education, suggested vouchers would improve choice and access. But the idea taxing public schools are going to bring you to utopia is silly. You've made it quite clear you think this policy is ok because you disagree with people choosing to educate their children as they wish. I may wish to choose to send my children to Elton. But it won’t happen for one simple reason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lamb Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 6 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Not many of the inputs are reclaimable. It's mainly wages etc. Being able to claim back some of the inputs will marginally reduce costs, but it isn't going to be significant. Depends how much work they contract out; then there's the catering they do outside of term time, accommodation provision during the holidays, books and materials, services etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lamb Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said: I may wish to choose to send my children to Elton. But it won’t happen for one simple reason. You can't spell it? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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