KWC fees.

[John Wright]

4 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

If it can’t be provided in the state sector then there should be assistance available. As you know, there is relief for disabled people when they’re buying certain types of equipment.

 And I really do mean can’t, not “Araminta has needs and can’t possibly have those needs met in a school full of plebs”.

Much special education is contracted out to the private sector already in England. No longer provided by the state or local authorities. Local authorities scurrying around to find residential places miles from home, not in the same town, city, county.

Add to that most of the places, when inspected perform underwhelmingly/badly at providing the education they are paid to provide.

As for Araminta, or her cousin Tarquin, they need a clip round the ear, and grounding.

[2112]

In the UK, private schools whilst having to pay from January 2025 VAT will also have to pay business rates (many private schools were charities). 

[John Wright]

7 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

You've got to wonder what would happen to the Hogwarts building if KWC did go pop.  I would imagine it would be difficult to sell on to anyone.  Would Govt be then left to pick up the pieces (or not)?

 

4 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

It would make a fabulous halls of residence type place for key workers.

Ideal place to relocate Tynwald. Lock the members in between elections

[Chinahand]

I've made my principled objections to taxing education very clear.

There are then the practical considerations of what happens if that is the democratic decision.

Obviously this is interesting as this is a policy which is being imposed on the Island by the UK.

Despite all those in favour of it on here, I suspect if the Island had control of its VAT Tynwald would not vote for this change.

The politicians voting understand how a permissive tax regime has encouraged footloose people to bring their businesses here and the Island as a whole is better off for that.

Having a good local public school is one small element of what attracts such people to the island, especially with the slow demise of the boarding school (the Hogwarts effect is weak!). And maybe some of the politicians would add my principled argument to this venal one for not taxing education.

But issues of self-government and subsidiarity aside what will happen if KWC's fee rises cause numbers to drops to say 275 secondary school pupils, from 325 now, and 375 before the latest set of fee rises due to Covid and Putin?

Currently KWC seems to be selling up at the Buchan and consolidating at its main site.

That is probably a good thing, though there are very few schools which mix little ones with 6th formers all on one site - careful corralling will be needed for it to be a success.

I basically agree with the comments that government shouldn't provide on going subsidies. Please note the difference, not taxing something is not a subsidy. The default position should be freedom of action, not government interference.

Wrighty, as always, makes a sensible suggestion to taper the implementation and with that and the sale of the Buchan the issue is simply pushed out into the medium term.

Again I see no issue with a school applying for lottery funding and its equivalents, but I agree the Manx government shouldn't be in the business of routinely handing out cash to KWC

Government funded quangos run cafes, steam trains, trams and powerstations and it hasn't gone well. They shouldn't also try funding a public school.

If push came to shove, KWC should re-locate to a more suitably sized sustainable building. But that would require a large capital budget and I can't imagine who would be willing to buy the existing building - definitely not the government!

Bishop Barrow who founded the Trust which built KWC wrote this:

At my coming into the Island, I found the people for the most part loose and vicious in their lives, rude and barbarous in their behaviour; and – which I suppose the cause of this disorder – without any true sense of religion, and, indeed, in a condition almost incapable of being bettered; for they had no means of instruction.

Ho hum ... plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Barrow established the Bishop Barrow Trust which took 150 years to raise the funds to build KWC. I wonder who could be persuaded to fund the building of a modern replacement?

Should KWC change to PSC anyone - Poker Stars College?

 

[Ringy Rose]

2 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Despite all those in favour of it on here, I suspect if the Island had control of its VAT Tynwald would not vote for this change.

So do I, given our knowledgeable and humble Chief Minister is a KWC alumnus.

6 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Much special education is contracted out to the private sector already in England. No longer provided by the state or local authorities. Local authorities scurrying around to find residential places miles from home, not in the same town, city, county.

Add to that most of the places, when inspected perform underwhelmingly/badly at providing the education they are paid to provide.

That’s the effect of so many years of privatisation. Care homes and children’s homes and children’s special education all used to be provided in house and now it isn’t, it’s provided by a company with its ultimate ownership in the BVI.

I’m not sure that the mainstream independent school sector are particularly interested in children with complex needs either. Which is a shame- if they were, maybe they’d find it easier to justify their charitable status.

[The Phantom]

9 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

If push came to shove, KWC should re-locate to a more suitably sized sustainable building. But that would require a large capital budget and I can't imagine who would be willing to buy the existing building - definitely not the government!

Should KWC change to PSC anyone - Poker Stars College?

 

I doubt anyone would buy the building.  I could only imagine it would then be left to rot.  Would Govt then have to step in to save a historical building?  It's a big plot of land though, would the proximity to the airport limit its development opportunities and therefore value?

Was it built purely to be a school and only been one since?  I've always got monastery type vibes from it. 

Edited August 30 by The Phantom

[A fool and his money.....]

11 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

I've made my principled objections to taxing education very clear.

There are then the practical considerations of what happens if that is the democratic decision.

Obviously this is interesting as this is a policy which is being imposed on the Island by the UK.

Despite all those in favour of it on here, I suspect if the Island had control of its VAT Tynwald would not vote for this change.

The politicians voting understand how a permissive tax regime has encouraged footloose people to bring their businesses here and the Island as a whole is better off for that.

Having a good local public school is one small element of what attracts such people to the island, especially with the slow demise of the boarding school (the Hogwarts effect is weak!). And maybe some of the politicians would add my principled argument to this venal one for not taxing education.

But issues of self-government and subsidiarity aside what will happen if KWC's fee rises cause numbers to drops to say 275 secondary school pupils, from 325 now, and 375 before the latest set of fee rises due to Covid and Putin?

Currently KWC seems to be selling up at the Buchan and consolidating at its main site.

That is probably a good thing, though there are very few schools which mix little ones with 6th formers all on one site - careful corralling will be needed for it to be a success.

I basically agree with the comments that government shouldn't provide on going subsidies. Please note the difference, not taxing something is not a subsidy. The default position should be freedom of action, not government interference.

Wrighty, as always, makes a sensible suggestion to taper the implementation and with that and the sale of the Buchan the issue is simply pushed out into the medium term.

Again I see no issue with a school applying for lottery funding and its equivalents, but I agree the Manx government shouldn't be in the business of routinely handing out cash to KWC

Government funded quangos run cafes, steam trains, trams and powerstations and it hasn't gone well. They shouldn't also try funding a public school.

If push came to shove, KWC should re-locate to a more suitably sized sustainable building. But that would require a large capital budget and I can't imagine who would be willing to buy the existing building - definitely not the government!

Bishop Barrow who founded the Trust which built KWC wrote this:

At my coming into the Island, I found the people for the most part loose and vicious in their lives, rude and barbarous in their behaviour; and – which I suppose the cause of this disorder – without any true sense of religion, and, indeed, in a condition almost incapable of being bettered; for they had no means of instruction.

Ho hum ... plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Barrow established the Bishop Barrow Trust which took 150 years to raise the funds to build KWC. I wonder who could be persuaded to fund the building of a modern replacement?

Should KWC change to PSC anyone - Poker Stars College?

 

Why do you maintain that not taxing something is not a subsidy?

Of course it's a subsidy. Government are foregoing the tax they would otherwise have. It's exactly the same as taxing them and then giving them a subsidy of the same amount.

 

 

[Chinahand]

 

19 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Why do you maintain that not taxing something is not a subsidy?

Of course it's a subsidy. Government are foregoing the tax they would otherwise have. It's exactly the same as taxing them and then giving them a subsidy of the same amount.

 

 

And yet again we have a perfect example of the statist mindset. In his view everything is a gift of the taxing controlling state. Everything should be taxed and anything that isn't is a subsidy provided by state munificence.

[Albert Tatlock]

"We are having positive discussions with the Isle of Man Government about the importance of maintaining independent education on the Island."

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/king-williams-college-to-absorb-vat-on-fees-after-labour-government-abolishes-tax-exemptions/

 

...so looks like they are looking for handouts...which means Joe Taxpayer wont see any benefit from the VAT increase and will lose out on a few £million.

Remember that when they put taxes up...which if you listen to Allinson's current mutterings about the UK, they are surely going to do at our next budget.

[Roger Mexico]

32 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Was it built purely to be a school and only been one since?  I've always got monastery type vibes from it. 

Always been a school since it was opened in 1833, but it was also intended to be a local training school for CofE ministers - indeed that was the original purpose of Bishop Barrow's Trust in 1668.  I think that went on a bit in the 19th century, but in the end it became easier to send students away for theological training.  It may account for the rather churchy architecture.  But then a lot of public buildings from that time are like that - look at the Houses of Parliament.

[Ringy Rose]

53 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Why do you maintain that not taxing something is not a subsidy?

I still find it utterly bizarre that clothing is taxed through VAT and domestic heating fuel is taxed through VAT but an exclusive education is not.

 

It should have been changed a long long time ago.

[A fool and his money.....]

40 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

 

And yet again we have a perfect example of the statist mindset. In his view everything is a gift of the taxing controlling state. Everything should be taxed and anything that isn't is a subsidy provided by state munificence.

The rights and wrongs of taxation make no difference whatsoever. The fact is most businesses are subject to VAT, that's a fact, it's not an opinion, it's not being "statist" it's a fact. Rightly or wrongly, that's where we are.

So the small number of providers of goods or services which aren't subject to VAT effectively get a subsidy, it may not actually be a subsidy, they may not actually receive any money from the government, but it amounts to the same thing!

There may well be a good reason for their exemption (subsidy), usually this is based on necessity - food from the supermarket for example is not subject to VAT as its essential, food from a restaurant is non essential and so is.

Private education, which is cost prohibitive for the vast majority of people on the island and therefore can't possibly be essential should be subject to VAT. 

The vast majority of people who pay tax on the IOM can't afford private education - those people should simply not be subsidising the very small number of people who can, it's wrong at every level.

 

[code99]

49 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

listen to Allinson's current mutterings about the UK, they are surely going to do at our next budget.

Yes, but according to Sir Keir ‘those with the broadest shoulders should bear the heavier burden’ (he is not contemplating  government “handouts” to private education providers). Dr Allinson’s tax hikes impact lower-income earners:

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/calls-for-treasury-to-ensure-tax-hike-replacement-doesnt-unfairly-impact-working-families/

[Harry Lamb]

1 hour ago, The Phantom said:

I doubt anyone would buy the building.  I could only imagine it would then be left to rot.  Would Govt then have to step in to save a historical building?  It's a big plot of land though, would the proximity to the airport limit its development opportunities and therefore value?

Was it built purely to be a school and only been one since?  I've always got monastery type vibes from it. 

Oh yes, when I was there some of the monks were still about, and St Benedict carried out an annual inspection. Bishop Barrow was, of course, a Trappist who founded a family of singers, but he kept quiet about it.

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, Ringy Rose said:

domestic heating fuel is taxed through VAT

But only at 5%, up to 2300 litres. If you use more than 2300 litres there’s a form to allow a refund if you can prove exclusive domestic use.