Celt Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Along the lines off what Lonan3 said, Hop Tu Naa, is a Celtic Tradition, not just Manks. There are European Countries that have a similar thing. It's about celebrating the Celtic New Year, when the barrier between the dark and light, underworld and overworld, is at it's least. The dead from the past year would pass over and the dead from the past could come and check up on You . The Bonfire thing could come from when two fires would be lit and the livestock would be driven between them to ensure good breeding and such in the coming year. People would do the same to bring good health and if carrying a crop off some sort would ensure a good harvest. The hollowed out turnip might come from when this happened, a home would have one on it's doorstep to show a light to their ancesters who had passed on in yrears gone by when they came across that night. The home would also leave food on the doorstep as a gift and to get a blessing. The reason they used a turnip might have been as it resembles a head. The head in Celtic belief is a powerful thing and believed to hold the persons spirit or soul. After Battle some Celts would remove the head off an enemy to gain power over the soul. Of a night it was known for a Warrior Camp to surrounded by these heads, facing outwards, that acted as a Spirit Fence, to keep the bad spirits away. So the turnip might have been used as this, to keep the bad spirits away and to stop them stealing the food and playing " Tricks". The American Halloween was the same thing but has been Americanized out off all recognision. Taken to the USA, by mostly Irish Immigrants, it was a part off their culture to still observe this time of year. Part off the night would be where some off the villige rogues would dress up as spooky things or creep about and knick the food and basicly try to scare the bejesus out of folk. This is roughly where the Trick or Treat thing turned up from. The Pumpkin is from the Jack-o-Lantern story of American origin and has been merged somewhere along the way. The All Hallows Eve thing is about the Christian Church stealing yet another date from the Celtic calender to try and overide a culture it could not conquer. Thats roughly it but if I posted it all, We'd be here all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 If I can give mine a supercilious smirk, plus a long piece of string so it can swing in whatever direction it chooses, do you think it might be sponsored by someone in the Treasury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacqueline Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 You could always give them a Bell and ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartT Posted October 8, 2005 Share Posted October 8, 2005 A reminder to all you Manksies out there, don't forget your customs. We don't do trick'a'treat and don't do pumpkins.. If you come to my door trick'a'treat'n then you'll learn some new Manks words.... The traditional song will of course be rewarded with goodies.. Good to see you supporting your culture, but interestingly enough the Trick or Treat, though brought back from America, is actually related to a Celtic pre Christian practice of playing tricks on each other to mark the season of dimishing sunlight. The practice of lighthing bonfires (which has since been moved to November the 5th, also comes from this time. Having said that the sound of Trick or Treat, without the Hoptunaa song annoys me, and some of the tricks are actually quite malicious, and could be intimidating to elderly people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted October 8, 2005 Share Posted October 8, 2005 What's the point in the elderly if you can't intimidate them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staaue Posted October 8, 2005 Author Share Posted October 8, 2005 What's the point in the elderly if you can't intimidate them? I'm sure I need to lighten up, but is that meant to be funny.. Good to see you supporting your culture, but interestingly enough the Trick or Treat, though brought back from America, is actually related to a Celtic pre Christian practice of playing tricks on each other to mark the season of dimishing sunlight. The practice of lighthing bonfires (which has since been moved to November the 5th, also comes from this time. could you tell us your source to show that we had trick or treat on our island before the yank spam heads gave it back to us..? I'd be interested to read up on this side of our culture.. But I'm not seeing a link to Hop tu naa and trick or treat, other than the head symbolism as stated by Celt in post 46. B) I also believe bonfire night and hop tu naa are linked.. I've got the date 12th Nov as the pagan new year, but don't quote me because I'm really not sure. It's a surprisingly complex subject, isn't it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartT Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 What's the point in the elderly if you can't intimidate them? could you tell us your source to show that we had trick or treat on our island before the yank spam heads gave it back to us..? I'd be interested to read up on this side of our culture.. But I'm not seeing a link to Hop tu naa and trick or treat, other than the head symbolism as stated by Celt in post 46. B) I also believe bonfire night and hop tu naa are linked.. I've got the date 12th Nov as the pagan new year, but don't quote me because I'm really not sure. It's a surprisingly complex subject, isn't it.. Too right it is complex. The comments about the "Trick or Treat" come from a verbal discussion I had with Yvonne Cresswell about two years back, so to get the full detail you really need to speak to her. Not sure about the 5th of November having a Celtic origin (definitely the bonfires which have been appropriated from Halloween do - perhaps taking on a new meaning, but still exercising a protective/ warning function), though the event which we now celebrate are not exclusively English anyway. It was a Scottish King that the Plotters wished to blow up (James the VI) who united the crowns of England and Scotland (and so became what the Saessenachs call the 1st). It's more of a victory for Protestants over Cathlolics, than the English over any other people. As far as I was aware the Celtic New year was the date we know as halloween (perhaps a november 12th connection had more to do with the changes to the gregorian calendar from the Julian Calendar in the 18th Century - as we all know the Manx and most Celtic nations kept the old date for many years?). Interesting choice of name, bet the mods wouldn't know to put a filter on that!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Next someone will be telling me kids don't put candles in their turnips because it's not safe. Probably put those new fangled torch things in instead. Part of the experience was the frustration at having to continually light the damned thing in gale force winds. Money had to be earned in those days - yes, it was hard, cold cash we got, not poncey sweets. Yep, that is my recollection of Hop Tu Naa, get the money to buy fireworks for bonfire night! It was hard work hollowing out the turnip, but the candle cooked the lid which you could eat as you go around! Happy days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Not) MEC VANNIN Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 A reminder to all you Manksies out there, don't forget your customs. We don't do trick'a'treat and don't do pumpkins.. If you come to my door trick'a'treat'n then you'll learn some new Manks words.... The traditional song will of course be rewarded with goodies.. You are a true patriot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staaue Posted October 10, 2005 Author Share Posted October 10, 2005 but the candle cooked the lid which you could eat as you go around! Happy days! Glad to be back... No way did you eat the lid... That must of tasted rank... Cheers MV.. I do my best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 but the candle cooked the lid which you could eat as you go around! Happy days! Glad to be back... No way did you eat the lid... That must of tasted rank... Cheers MV.. I do my best. Yes, we did and, yes, it did! But, you know what kids are like, anything out of the ordinary or slightly naughty and they want to have a go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeus Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Ok, in completely manx-untraditional fashion (I admit) I'm just carving away at my pumpkin - and you know what? you can't make something like this out of a turnip: Some people really go over the top with this: Pumpkingutter.com A little bit bigger ones Some nice designs Extremepumpkins.com Virtual Pumpkin Carving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-rhymes Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Us Mancuians also use turnips! I'm going to give some of this turnip art ago this year... I may well post the results. As far as I can remember and have been told this tradition in Lancashire goes back a very long way. So perhaps the comment about someone coming from Bury wouldn't have made much difference to the celebration apart from the song. What's wrong with Bury in any case? I think the Hop tu naa song is nice and I prefer it to the Americanised version. I also think it's good that you Manx cats have remembered these traditions when a lot of local traditions have been lost all over these Islands. I think it's really stupid to turn it into a nationalist rant though! Here are a couple of good links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween http://www.jackolanterns.net/britishhalloween.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeus Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 Ok, not being one to disrespect local traditions, I decided to compromise by carving a pumpkin and a turnip: These turnip thingies are tiny - how are you supposed to carve them out properly, stick a candle in them and put a lid on? Or are there bigger ones about?... Anyone up for a carving competition, with the result pics posted here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-rhymes Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 Nope they are small and hard... The competition sounds like a good idea. 2 of the young un's will be over in Ireland with family so I guess I will be doing the sculpting for my pleasure (I'm a big kid anyway)... Perhaps have 2 categories one for turnips and another for pumpkins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.