Is the state becoming harmful to its citizens?

[Utah 01]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

So it looks like they fell for the Politician's Syllogism: Something must be done/This is something/Therefore we must do it.  The whole thing has the air of an arbitrary decision, promoted and defended simply because they have no idea what else to do.  Possibly the civil servants were just as clueless but determined to push ahead anyway.

.......and there you brilliantly summarise the failings of every politician and decision-making process in government at any level on the planet and throughout history.

You should copyright those few sentences and have it put into every text book on government, politics and economics with a third; we, the people, are governed by mediocrity that we are content to accept and powerless to (peacefully)change.

[Ringy Rose]

3 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

There are fixed protocols for this, usually so that if a Minister insists on doing a favour for someone, it's clear who is to blame.   So if there had been objections during the Liverpool fiasco that the Minister(s) had ignored or countermanded, the evidence should be there and would have come out by now.  The fact everyone is keeping quiet and we can't even get an indication of what the existing costs are, suggests the civil servants are at least as culpable

But if carrying on was the least worst option- and it very likely was- then that wouldn’t necessarily apply.

The Liverpool stage is an example of how complicated interactions can be. My example isn’t to say the CS ran the project with complete competence, it’s fairly obviously they didn’t. But if you have a bad idea delivered incompetently it’s a lot harder to unpack blame. The buck should stop with the politicians.

[Vaaish]

6 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

With both those two, it's not clear whether their certainty comes from their own independent opinion or whether they're just repeating what they have been told with absolute conviction.  Cannan in particular tends to get flustered if he's quizzed about details, so it may just be that he's faithfully following orders he doesn't understand.

But that's not really my point.  If civil service advice is overruled by a Ministerial decision, that is very carefully documented by the civil service.  There are fixed protocols for this, usually so that if a Minister insists on doing a favour for someone, it's clear who is to blame.   So if there had been objections during the Liverpool fiasco that the Minister(s) had ignored or countermanded, the evidence should be there and would have come out by now.  The fact everyone is keeping quiet and we can't even get an indication of what the existing costs are, suggests the civil servants are at least as culpable.

You’re likely right, but as the politicians are dodging and weaving furiously, it seems they too lack the evidence to say ‘It’s all the fault of that terrible CEO who serially misled me, the rotter’.

[Non-Believer]

1 minute ago, Vaaish said:

You’re likely right, but as the politicians are dodging and weaving furiously, it seems they too lack the evidence to say ‘It’s all the fault of that terrible CEO who serially misled me, the rotter’.

It may be both a current lack of evidence and a lack of balls.

But something has certainly changed, Alf  Cannan had no qualms in October 2021 about telling the public that Ministers could not trust their civil servants to be honest or accurate.

[Vaaish]

6 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

With both those two, it's not clear whether their certainty comes from their own independent opinion or whether they're just repeating what they have been told with absolute conviction.  Cannan in particular tends to get flustered if he's quizzed about details, so it may just be that he's faithfully following orders he doesn't understand.

You’re right to highlight the uncertainty. I find myself trying to establish if Cannan becoming flustered when questioned is, as you suggest, because the water is closing over his head when he has no answers beyond his civil service prepared script, or, whether he becomes agitated that someone has the temerity to question or even challenge him - a la Sunak. Of course, these are not mutually exclusive. In Hooper’s case I think it’s no more than good old fashioned hubris. 

[philwebs]

Slightly off topic, maybe not, do the "govt", civil service, and local authorities belong to a Guild? This would make a lot of sense and explain many of their actions and their consequences.

Read this article on the Guild System and ask yourself is this is an explanation for what they do:

https://wiki.lspace.org/Guilds_of_Ankh-Morpork