Armed Police - Casually strolling

[Lost Login]

I have always held the view that the role of the police is to serve the public and they need to ensure they have the respect, support and trust of the public. In that respect if the IoM public are of the opinion that the police should not be walking around armed then that should be what happens. In Baroness Casey's review following the Sarah Everard case into the Met' firearm unit she found that the unit was 90% white male and that aggressive street police culture dominated and that rules were broken with relative impunity. Reading this thread and seeing the odd video it appears that there is concern over aggressive street police culture becoming the norm over here.

Dereck's Flint opinion appears to be the police should be the ones making the judgement and the public should just accept.

I have limited respect for Mr Flint as a policeman and his judgement and that may colour my opinion, but it seems he simply wants to hide behind rule books, procedures and red tape or sneer at a posters comment because they don't use a word correctly. It appears that if it is written down in triplicate and followed then that is the way it should be done. Where has common sense gone?

I rarely see armed police in the UK except where are obviously heighten security concerns e.g. around airports, government or royal residences. Does the level of threat really exist in the IoM they they need to be armed just so they ready. As other posters have said if responding to a specific incident they should not have time to be stopping off for a copy. Otherwise keep them locked away in the car. Is the level of threat so high and imminent that the police require draw a gun at a moments notice. If there is, the chance is they are not going to be at the right place anyway and if going to an incident will the extra 30 seconds really make any difference. I cannot remember any incidences being reported in the IoM where it would have. Additionally, unless actually being directly at and witnessing an incident, will there not be a period of time whereby offices are being advised about a matter, level of threat etc and then assessing the situation and appropriate response all of which gives time to access a weapon.   

As for Dereck's assertion that it is better to get all kitted up because "History has shown it is when you are constantly taking guns on and off, is when mistakes and accidents on." I find that fairly ludicrous. If officers can not do that safely then they should not be authorised as firearm officers. Secondly for the number of incidents that arise in the IoM there should be no need to be constantly taking on and off and I expect that if they are now kitting up routinely rather then as and when required that actually results in them kitting up more frequently which according to Derek's own argument increases the risk.

Quite simply if there is regular arming of the police in the IoM and they are routinely wandering about armed and stopping off fully armed for coffees then I expect they are probably as far out of touch with the view's of the Manx public as Mr Flint is.

 

 

[Wake Up Call]

16 hours ago, Blade Runner said:

They are called the IOPC

Independent Office for Police Conduct

You are welcome

Who are they then? Please post the IOM webpage for reference.

[WTF]

8 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

And possibly unlawfully. The stuff that is handed in annually during amnesties proves that.

i would suggest most of the stuff handed in at amnesty is from deceased gun licence holders and that family see the amnesty and think  better get rid of the guns that they had been planning to get rid of anyway.  i doubt any guns from murders get handed in by the shooter.

[hoopsaa]

We don't need armed coppers.

 

Until we do.

 

Maybe the increased visibility is a way of familiarising coppers with having guns in public, so they are less nervous about it?

Or maybe it's familiarising us with seeing armed coppers......which, in conjunction with our connectivity issues, is obviously a deep state coup, masterminded by Longworth, and we're all to be held prisoners on the rock, 'for our own good'?

HELP!

Only Elon can save us now.....

[Albert Tatlock]

6 minutes ago, WTF said:

i would suggest most of the stuff handed in at amnesty is from deceased gun licence holders and that family see the amnesty and think  better get rid of the guns that they had been planning to get rid of anyway.  i doubt any guns from murders get handed in by the shooter.

That's very true...but you'd have to agree that without such amnesties that there is an increased risk that even some of these weapons could eventually fall into the wrong hands?

But even if the percentage of actual criminal weapons handed in is small...amnesties send a clear message and take thousands of potential criminal weapons out of the system.

For example, if some youngster bought a knife online a few years back, knows its now illegal to possess it - made a stupid mistake, but doesn't know how to dispose of it...and if found in a bin would no doubt it would be fingerprint checked...an amnesty is the best opportunity to get rid.

 

[The Phantom]

@Derek Flint just assume that I've clicked 'like' to all your posts. 

[Derek Flint]

2 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

My view is, if surveyed, that probably at least 80% of the population of the island would be against regular armed police patrols.  That percentage might likely be much higher, but I'm allowing for a large number of immigrants now living here...English, South African etc. who might well have already become desensitised to armed police in their former residences.

In short, most would say we don't want it, nor need it, given the crime levels here. That it sends out completely the wrong message  about what the culture of the Isle of Man is all about.

Of course they would likely back the use of a centralised armed unit, or, say, three or four 'armed police stations' around the island, but not armed officers on the streets here.

Politicians do need to be involved here...in nipping some of these potential issues in the bud. For starters, in lowering the number of so called 'collectors' and the categories permitted to posses firearms here. And far higher penalties for illegal possession - with continued amnesties for handing in any weapons - guns or knives prior to new laws taking effect.

...and I am of the same view that the same 80% of people, would likely be of the opinion that the majority of armed responses that have already occurred, were completely an overreaction.

 

 

Politicians don't need to be involved. 

Unless you want to unravel the principles of police operational independence?

I agree there is a hearts and minds exercise needed here. But in the event of an incident, even if the outcome is adverse, then the thing that will now no longer be found inadequate is response times.

1 hour ago, Beelzebub3 said:

In a nutshell, new CC is employed on the Isle of Man new CC wants the Isle of Man to be like Yorkshire and Humber, even though the places and people are as far removed as could be possible. CC is like all the rest of the UK people shipped over to show the Manx how it should be run like all the other sevices on the Island that run to perfection eg Airport Nobles Steampacket MUA. 

The last 3 'imported' chief constables served long and full tenures. Each improved the force. I can say that cos I served under them all. 

[Mercenary]

12 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

Politicians don't need to be involved. 

Unless you want to unravel the principles of police operational independence?

It would certainly be a change to the world of policing if David Quirk was able to pick up the phone and get them to clear up dog mess in Onchan.

Edited Sunday at 08:39 AM by Mercenary

[Tinpot]

10 hours ago, Gladys said:

10 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

Glad you acknowledge MF as a good litmus.  Many views may not be fully informed and some may be knee jerk, but are indicative of wider opinion.  That indicates a need for clear communication, surely? 

This is absolute nonsense, and the fact that anyone would think the views posted here are representative of the wider population is a bit scary.

MF is a very small sample of the islands population (in some of the very small number of posters don’t even live here) and very skewed in terms of demographic.

People who post here are a certain type, the average age is high, and views expressed on here are in no way representative of the wider population, most of which wouldn’t even notice a copper with a gun or give the slightest thought as to why they were in Costa.

i would put money on the average age on here being way over 50 and most posters having very little to occupy their days.

[Albert Tatlock]

3 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

Politicians don't need to be involved. 

Unless you want to unravel the principles of police operational independence?

I agree there is a hearts and minds exercise needed here. But in the event of an incident, even if the outcome is adverse, then the thing that will now no longer be found inadequate is response times.

The last 3 'imported' chief constables served long and full tenures. Each improved the force. I can say that cos I served under them all. 

Of course politicians do need to be involved. They enact the laws that you police and can reduce the number of weapons allowed (and therefore the number that are available)...and discourage possession through much higher penalties.

You say "minutes count", but I would argue that the response from centralised armouries on the island would be much quicker than gathering armed police up from various streets and shops across the island.

As to operational independence, yes of course if there is a threat. Threats come and go, but the current policy seems to be that you are expecting something to kick off imminently...but the reality I suspect is that you are simply trying to desensitise us to permanently armed police...which the majority of us do not want.

If there is a specific threat then tell us...chances are Joe Public will have most would-be suspects handed over in a matter of hours here.

We don't want armed criminals or armed police.

 

[Auntie Depressant]

42 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

I agree there is a hearts and minds exercise needed here.

You’re 100% correct.  However, you’ve come in with your size 12 ex-policeman’s feet and annihilated any opportunity of that from the get go.

Regardless of necessity,or policy, or procedures, it would be obvious to anyone that island residents, with no information or pre-warning about this happening are going to feel unnerved by seeing armed officers in Costa.

You've had no empathy for that situation whatsoever. You’ve been scathing and supercilious in your replies and have done nothing to reassure people who will have been shocked about this monumental change to the island and about seeing armed weapons in a coffee shop of all places. That you can’t see that is seriously worrying and just reflects why so many people these days have little trust in, or respect for, the constabulary. 

[Gladys]

56 minutes ago, Tinpot said:

This is absolute nonsense, and the fact that anyone would think the views posted here are representative of the wider population is a bit scary.

MF is a very small sample of the islands population (in some of the very small number of posters don’t even live here) and very skewed in terms of demographic.

People who post here are a certain type, the average age is high, and views expressed on here are in no way representative of the wider population, most of which wouldn’t even notice a copper with a gun or give the slightest thought as to why they were in Costa.

i would put money on the average age on here being way over 50 and most posters having very little to occupy their days.

Are you happy to have armed police routinely around the place? 

[Casta]

3 hours ago, Vaaish said:

Embarrassingly, I misread the online advice and wore a banana. Mind you, I also I did have my MAGA cap

Is that the same cap from the American phrase "put a cap in his ass"?

[Beelzebub3]

1 hour ago, Derek Flint said:

Politicians don't need to be involved. 

Unless you want to unravel the principles of police operational independence?

I agree there is a hearts and minds exercise needed here. But in the event of an incident, even if the outcome is adverse, then the thing that will now no longer be found inadequate is response times.

The last 3 'imported' chief constables served long and full tenures. Each improved the force. I can say that cos I served under them all. 

In your opinion as an ex-copper, of course you are going to say that, maybe others disagree with your opinion and think they are now out of touch with the public, that is my opinion from a law abiding person on the street. I have yet to hear of a shooting on the Island and very much doubt that if someone had the desire to carry out such an atrocity the armed unit would not be much use as the chances are they would be too late to the event as anything taking place would have already happened, I am sure a risk assessment of that happening would be very remote. Derek I do think you need to retire away from the force as your opinion is to biased towards the Constabulary and you are unwilling to see any outsider's point of view.

[TheTeapot]

"Police officers, as we all know, have powers and privileges much greater than any one person in our community, and that makes the possible commission of offences and the possible abuse of that role very easy."

A remark from a judge in sentencing another crook.