Armed Police - Casually strolling

[Derek Flint]

8 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Contributory to a continuum where firearms become the weapon of choice. A continuum is a chain of events where each action propels the next. Where on that continuum are we?  Which has come first, a criminal being armed or the police response? 

Yes, legally held firearms have been used in atrocities, but has a firearm (legal or otherwise) been used in an atrocity here? 

Or is an armed response,seemingly to every 'event' going to ensure that the 'crims' properly tool up next time? 

As I said, no problem with a trained unit, just whether having officers carrying arms as routine is proportionate to the risk here. 

As to my hypothesis, it is exactly that. 

 

No. Armed Policing is an intervention to an incident where an escalating level of force is identified. Hence the 'otherwise so dangerous' element of the criteria for deployment. 

It isn't about 'has been'. The assessment is 'could be'. Waiting for an incident and then assessing the prevailing threat is nonsensical, unprofessional  and lacks sophistication. 

Yes it is proportionate. They are equipped and able to respond to a wide range of matters. They are not deployed as an armed until they are told they are deployed as such by a qualified commander 

[Gladys]

23 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

No. Armed Policing is an intervention to an incident where an escalating level of force is identified. Hence the 'otherwise so dangerous' element of the criteria for deployment. 

It isn't about 'has been'. The assessment is 'could be'. Waiting for an incident and then assessing the prevailing threat is nonsensical, unprofessional  and lacks sophistication. 

Yes it is proportionate. They are equipped and able to respond to a wide range of matters. They are not deployed as an armed until they are told they are deployed as such by a qualified commander 

So, without an 'incident' it is entirely proportionate for armed police to pop into Tesco or Costa to pick up refreshment? 

Whether they are told they are not deployed as an armed unit until told, is a little irrelevant as they are, in fact,  armed.

Sorry, Derek, it is just word soup. 

 

Edited Sunday at 12:15 AM by Gladys

[Kopek]

In the Sea terminal ' indecent' they had time to go for a coffee! That doesn't indicate imminent danger, to either the police or the general public? Maybe when the boat docks???

It's looking more and more like a conditioning exercise, get the public used to seeing armed police in general situations that are not of any threat to anyone, rather like UK airports, perhaps a further training exercise for less trained police with a more experienced police person but i8t will, in the end, be seen a a cynical police manoeuvre to 'brainwash' the public???

If I were an MHK I would question the voracity of the Terminal, PSM and Anagh Coar incedents, this would probably result in the draw back of police to HQ and the termination of such 'training' exercises in the public view without serious need for them???

Do we need armed police on our streets without serious need? No!

[Derek Flint]

5 hours ago, Gladys said:

So, without an 'incident' it is entirely proportionate for armed police to pop into Tesco or Costa to pick up refreshment? 

Whether they are told they are not deployed as an armed unit until told, is a little irrelevant as they are, in fact,  armed.

Sorry, Derek, it is just word soup. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Kopek said:

In the Sea terminal ' indecent' they had time to go for a coffee! That doesn't indicate imminent danger, to either the police or the general public? Maybe when the boat docks???

It's looking more and more like a conditioning exercise, get the public used to seeing armed police in general situations that are not of any threat to anyone, rather like UK airports, perhaps a further training exercise for less trained police with a more experienced police person but i8t will, in the end, be seen a a cynical police manoeuvre to 'brainwash' the public???

If I were an MHK I would question the voracity of the Terminal, PSM and Anagh Coar incedents, this would probably result in the draw back of police to HQ and the termination of such 'training' exercises in the public view without serious need for them???

Do we need armed police on our streets without serious need? No!

They are on patrol, and happen to be armed. If they are required spontaneously, minutes matter.

Thirty years  ago when I first worked on an ARV, the guns were in a safe and the body armour was in the boot. We were also invariably the last to be sent!.Over time, through recognition that minutes matter and that kitting up under the stress of a live job leads to mistakes, mode of carriage has evolved.

You may not like it but it is a bit like any of the other risk industries like nuclear, medicine and the like, there is a prescribed way of doing things that have evolved and improved over time, because they are safer.

[Albert Tatlock]

My view is, if surveyed, that probably at least 80% of the population of the island would be against regular armed police patrols.  That percentage might likely be much higher, but I'm allowing for a large number of immigrants now living here...English, South African etc. who might well have already become desensitised to armed police in their former residences.

In short, most would say we don't want it, nor need it, given the crime levels here. That it sends out completely the wrong message  about what the culture of the Isle of Man is all about.

Of course they would likely back the use of a centralised armed unit, or, say, three or four 'armed police stations' around the island, but not armed officers on the streets here.

Politicians do need to be involved here...in nipping some of these potential issues in the bud. For starters, in lowering the number of so called 'collectors' and the categories permitted to posses firearms here. And far higher penalties for illegal possession - with continued amnesties for handing in any weapons - guns or knives prior to new laws taking effect.

...and I am of the same view that the same 80% of people, would likely be of the opinion that the majority of armed responses that have already occurred, were completely an overreaction.

 

 

[Vaaish]

9 hours ago, Gladys said:

Hope you had your bandana on. 

Embarrassingly, I misread the online advice and wore a banana. Mind you, I also I did have my MAGA cap….Make Arbory Great Again.

[Gladys]

2 minutes ago, Vaaish said:

Embarrassingly, I misread the online advice and wore a banana. Mind you, I also I did have my MAGA cap….Make Arbory Great Again.

Are 'they' eating pets in Arbory?  

[Gladys]

1 hour ago, Derek Flint said:

 

They are on patrol, and happen to be armed. If they are required spontaneously, minutes matter.

Thirty years  ago when I first worked on an ARV, the guns were in a safe and the body armour was in the boot. We were also invariably the last to be sent!.Over time, through recognition that minutes matter and that kitting up under the stress of a live job leads to mistakes, mode of carriage has evolved.

You may not like it but it is a bit like any of the other risk industries like nuclear, medicine and the like, there is a prescribed way of doing things that have evolved and improved over time, because they are safer.

But is that assessment of the risk here accurate?  Sounds more like someone else's risk assessment has just been adopted without an assessment of the actual risk, ie 'that's how they do it in the UK'.

In other words, an inappropriate risk assessment based on the wrong risk factors. 

Thirty years ago were there ever any incidents which in the debrief justified the use of firearms?

I was undecided at the start of this debate, didn't like the idea but thought it must be based on something real.  Now I am pretty sure that it is not proportionate to the risks here to routinely  have armed police on patrol. 

[Albert Tatlock]

12 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Are 'they' eating pets in Arbory?  

Why do you think there are no foxes in Foxdale - and 'Cat' is in Castletown and 'Dog' is in Douglas?

And I'm not even going into what they do with the Rams in Ramsey!

[Albert Tatlock]

12 minutes ago, Gladys said:

But is that assessment of the risk here accurate?  Sounds more like someone else's risk assessment has just been adopted without an assessment of the actual risk, ie 'that's how they do it in the UK'.

Spot on IMO.

 

[Beelzebub3]

2 minutes ago, Gladys said:

But is that assessment of the risk here accurate?  Sounds more like someone else's risk assessment has just been adopted without an assessment of the actual risk, ie 'that's how they do it in the UK'.

In other words, an inappropriate risk assessment based on the wrong risk factors. 

Thirty years ago were there ever any incidents which in the debrief justified the use of firearms?

I was undecided at the start of this debate, didn't like the idea but thought it must be based on something real.  Now I am pretty sure that it is not proportionate to the risks here to routinely  have armed police on patrol. 

In a nutshell, new CC is employed on the Isle of Man new CC wants the Isle of Man to be like Yorkshire and Humber, even though the places and people are as far removed as could be possible. CC is like all the rest of the UK people shipped over to show the Manx how it should be run like all the other sevices on the Island that run to perfection eg Airport Nobles Steampacket MUA. 

[Shake me up Judy]

1 minute ago, Beelzebub3 said:

In a nutshell, new CC is employed on the Isle of Man new CC wants the Isle of Man to be like Yorkshire and Humber, even though the places and people are as far removed as could be possible. CC is like all the rest of the UK people shipped over to show the Manx how it should be run like all the other sevices on the Island that run to perfection eg Airport Nobles Steampacket MUA. 

Bingo ! Gent with the horns and tail at the back of the room.

[Vaaish]

28 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Are 'they' eating pets in Arbory?  

Yes…Scouse immigrants ate Billy Quaggan’s pet kipper. It must be true…I heard it on Manx Radio.

[Gladys]

Just now, Vaaish said:

Yes…Scouse immigrants ate Billy Quaggan’s pet kipper. It must be true…I heard it on Manx Radio.

As pets go, not a very responsive one. 

[Vaaish]

Just now, Gladys said:

As pets go, not a very responsive one. 

He loved it though.