Armed Police - Casually strolling

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, Johnny F said:

Derek you mention Risk Assessments and threat assessment, as anyone who regularly carries out risk assessments will know, they are opinion based and each person filling out a risk assessment will have a different opinion on the hazard/risk level. Risk assessments aren't an exact science !

As you have mentioned legal gun ownership and the prevalence and type of them on the island, what is your opinion on the ownership of handguns ?  In my view as a firearms certificate holder, hunting rifles and shotguns have a logical and morally justifiable position in society.

True to an extent.

Which is why the SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) have to be evergreen and as good as you can get them. Good enough so that if you follow them you should be doing all the right things and your arse should be covered as well.

A classic example was the bomb at the MEN Arena (not sure what it's called now but everyone still refers to it as the MEN) in Manchester where a nobody called Abedi blew himself to a smash taking a load of kids with him. The SOP's put just one person in charge. A Chief Inspector. Big mistake. One person sitting alone in the middle of a shitstorm with just his SOP's to guide him. He got a report of someone armed in the building. His SOP's said he couldn't let in Emergency Services "Until the building had been cleared" - whatever that means... Now the MEN is a massive structure. So the Emergency Services sat outside until it had been cleared or whatever. Impasse while kids died.

Obviously the SOP's had completely failed the situation and were not fit for purpose. I've no doubt every senior police officer heard about the incident but not one of them thought to add some authority by their presence in the Control Room. The poor bastard in the middle did not come out well in the Public Inquiry that followed. He has my sympathy...

Edited Sunday at 12:35 PM by P.K.

[wrighty]

3 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

 

If the pisshead with a bottle is about to stick it in someone

 

You seriously suggesting it might be ok for the police to shoot a pisshead having a scrap outside one of our nightspots on a Friday night?

[Derek Flint]

1 hour ago, Johnny F said:

From a public relations point of view of this Costa situation, the police have shot themselves in the foot, pardon the pun.

Derek I really appreciate your input on this forum please continue.

The response time argument is valid but trying to reduce it from 'an hour' or whatever you suggested down to 'immediate' is an overreaction. If the normal response time is an hour then it really needs shortening and I'm sure there are ways of doing that without actually resorting to guns on hips at all times.

Derek you mention Risk Assessments and threat assessment, as anyone who regularly carries out risk assessments will know, they are opinion based and each person filling out a risk assessment will have a different opinion on the hazard/risk level. Risk assessments aren't an exact science !

As you have mentioned legal gun ownership and the prevalence and type of them on the island, what is your opinion on the ownership of handguns ?  In my view as a firearms certificate holder, hunting rifles and shotguns have a logical and morally justifiable position in society.

The thing is, on the very worst day, a minimal response time isn't an over-reaction. I've run jobs where my heart has been in my mouth because it's taken us so long to get armed officers on the ground. We've got away with it on so many occasions- we've been lucky. 

A spontaneous firearms deployment is incredibly stressful. You are working with limited intelligence and decisions have to be made without the lens of hindsight. For one key element to be ready to seamlessly do their bit takes the stress out of it for them. As the ultimate assessors of the level of force required, I want them to do so with the very minimum of distraction. 

The APSTRA is a very complex and multidimensional process. It makes the assessment more of an exact science. 

Handguns? Tough one. The island decided not to ban after Dunblane. I was involved in the aftermath of it in the UK and became one of a very limited number of officers accredited to make inquiries into firearms applications and re-licensing. One element of faith I have on island is that I know the people involved in that part of the business are very good at what they do. Personally, handguns are a tool of work, but I understand that people do enjoy the sporting element - and that Turkish chap at the Olympics sort of captured that. 

Licensing is the first line of the safety system. Sometimes the Swiss cheese holes inadvertently align. That's why you need to be really good at the other end of the process.

[Derek Flint]

15 minutes ago, wrighty said:

You seriously suggesting it might be ok for the police to shoot a pisshead having a scrap outside one of our nightspots on a Friday night?

No. It's about a proportionate application of force. An armed officer is trained and qualified to manage that from presence all the way up.

0.05%, remember!

[Derek Flint]

21 minutes ago, wrighty said:

Doesn’t faze me that there might be armed police walking about the place - I’m used to it from other places, and I’m a good guy so unlikely to get shot by one. 
 

I don’t think it’s a good idea though. It could lead to a literal arms race where drug dealers or whatever feel the need to tool up as the police are armed. And this means a higher likelihood of shootings, innocents getting caught in the crossfire, and folk getting shot for owning a Nerf gun. 
 

If I made the rules, which I don’t unfortunately, our police would all be Taser trained, and leave the guns at the station for when they’re actually called for. 

I think hip replacements should be done entirely under local anaesthetic, and using basic kitchen implements. And to be honest, how hard can it be. We could save millions by just getting HCPs to do them 

It's not about rules...

 

[Derek Flint]

22 minutes ago, P.K. said:

True to an extent.

Which is why the SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) have to be evergreen and as good as you can get them. Good enough so that if you follow them you should be doing all the right things and your arse should be covered as well.

A classic example was the bomb at the MEN Arena (not sure what it's called now but everyone still refers to it as the MEN) in Manchester where a nobody called Abedi blew himself to a smash taking a load of kids with him. The SOP's put just one person in charge. A Chief Inspector. Big mistake. One person sitting alone in the middle of a shitstorm with just his SOP's to guide him. He got a report of someone armed in the building. His SOP's said he couldn't let in Emergency Services "Until the building had been cleared" - whatever that means... Now the MEN is a massive structure. So the Emergency Services sat outside until it had been cleared or whatever. Impasse while kids died.

Obviously the SOP's had completely failed the situation and were not fit for purpose. I've no doubt every senior police officer heard about the incident but not one of them thought to add some authority by their presence in the Control Room. The poor bastard in the middle did not come out well in the Public Inquiry that followed. He has my sympathy...

The Kerslake and associated reports make for a really difficult read. 

If you take time to study them, that CI wasn't the right bloke for the task, under qualified and inexperienced. The ACC gripped the job and quickly put the right people in play.

It was a masterclass in lack of preparedness.

..which is exactly what thus tread is about.

Anyway, it's 2145 in downtown Osaka. Off to bed after an Asahi nightcap and a Yamazaki chaser.

Stay safe out there.

[Tinpot]

Armed police required in Ramsey over the weekend.  Sounds like it’s a good job we have them ready to go.

[TheTeapot]

'required'

 

[Passing Time]

As per plod style, won't comment further...

[Passing Time]

7 minutes ago, Tinpot said:

Armed police required in Ramsey over the weekend.  Sounds like it’s a good job we have them ready to go.

You're as bad as Thommo FFS

[La Colombe]

1 hour ago, Derek Flint said:

I think hip replacements should be done entirely under local anaesthetic, and using basic kitchen implements.

Especially when a policeman has just shot himself in one while unholstering. 

[thommo2010]

44 minutes ago, Passing Time said:

As per plod style, won't comment further...

What do you want? The persons height, weight, inside measurements?

[Tinpot]

1 hour ago, Passing Time said:

As per plod style, won't comment further...

Why should they comment on anything?  If you needed to know details you would know them?

1 hour ago, Passing Time said:

You're as bad as Thommo FFS

And yet I still haven’t seen anyone explain what the issue is supposed to be.

[Gladys]

2 hours ago, wrighty said:

Doesn’t faze me that there might be armed police walking about the place - I’m used to it from other places, and I’m a good guy so unlikely to get shot by one. 
 

I don’t think it’s a good idea though. It could lead to a literal arms race where drug dealers or whatever feel the need to tool up as the police are armed. And this means a higher likelihood of shootings, innocents getting caught in the crossfire, and folk getting shot for owning a Nerf gun. 
 

If I made the rules, which I don’t unfortunately, our police would all be Taser trained, and leave the guns at the station for when they’re actually called for. 

@Tinpot 

Wirighth sets out the issue succinctly.  To that I would add proportionality and a risk assessment based on the risks that are here, not which may apply to a small town in England. 

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

The Kerslake and associated reports make for a really difficult read. 

If you take time to study them, that CI wasn't the right bloke for the task, under qualified and inexperienced. The ACC gripped the job and quickly put the right people in play.

It was a masterclass in lack of preparedness.

..which is exactly what thus tread is about.

@Derek Flint

Excuse me Derek but just how many Police Inspectors have experience in managing a major terrorist bomb outrage with multiple casualties? Sure you game these things in training but it's not the same as the real thing because you simply don't have the pressures. And the pressures are enormous. As the poor sod found out.

If, as you say, he wasn't the right bloke for the task then the hierarchy who put him there presumably suffered the consequences...?