Armed Police - Casually strolling

[hoopsaa]

2 minutes ago, Gladys said:

@Tinpot 

Wirighth sets out the issue succinctly.  To that I would add proportionality and a risk assessment based on the risks that are here, not which may apply to a small town in England. 

The trouble with justifying armed response, is you don't need them until you do, and then you really do, and quickly.

We have a relatively large number of legal fire arm owners over here, and we also have some nasty little shits involved in the import business. Some of these aspire to be like the hard men operating across.

Better safe then sorry, IMHO. Where I've lived. I've seen plenty of armed coppers, never viewed it as a threat or a problem, tbh.

[Shake me up Judy]

Guns are only really effective against armed criminals. In normal day to day civilian policing they're practically useless because you can't use them. Tasers are a much more useful active deterrent. That and the threat of real and meaningful physical intervention. If the time comes when the cops need to be armed on the IOM then that will be the time to hand out the guns and ammo. Until then it's an over-specification, inappropriate, disproportionate, and plain bad policing. 

[StCatherine]

The problem as I see it is that the great Manx public have almost as much respect for the police as they do for Alf. All these bully boy tactics are not exactly doing wonders for community buy in which is what they need to police effectively. 

[Roger Mexico]

The Police Facebook post is pretty similar to what we've seen from other such 'operations':

Armed Police and police negotiators responded to an incident in Ramsey in the early hours of Sunday 15th September, the details of the incident are under investigation and the police cannot comment at this stage. A male was detained by armed officers after surrendering himself to them around 09:30am in the area of Albert Street, Ramsey. Police would like to reassure the public that this was an isolated incident and the public are not at risk. Additionally they would like to reassure the public that the use of armed officers was necessary, that the male was not injured during the arrest and is currently safe and well.

The fact they feel compelled to tell us "the use of armed officers was necessary" is telling.   Though given that Our Man Flint assures us that it is necessary in every possible situation ("You never know when someone being issued a parking ticket might kick off"; "That elderly tourist asking the way to Peel Castle might really be a terrorist"), it doesn't tell us much about what actually happened.  There's no suggestion that there is any third party involvement, so you wonder if the arrested male was any danger to anyone, except possibly himself.

The trouble is we've seen similar incidents before, where the charges that arose in the end amounted (at best) to "someone being a bit mouthy".  So we're entitled to be a bit cynical.  Maybe it will turn out to be justified and it's too soon to make a final judgement, but people are going to sceptical for the moment.

[Jarndyce]

1 hour ago, thommo2010 said:

What do you want? The persons height, weight, inside measurements?

Inside what, exactly?

[Gladys]

1 minute ago, Jarndyce said:

Inside what, exactly?

A cell? 

[A fool and his money.....]

22 minutes ago, hoopsaa said:

The trouble with justifying armed response, is you don't need them until you do, and then you really do, and quickly.

We have a relatively large number of legal fire arm owners over here, and we also have some nasty little shits involved in the import business. Some of these aspire to be like the hard men operating across.

Better safe then sorry, IMHO. Where I've lived. I've seen plenty of armed coppers, never viewed it as a threat or a problem, tbh.

I don't think anyone feels threatened by them, everyone has been somewhere where they are a common sight, they're not particularly intimidating, some may even find them reassuring.

The point is they're just not necessary here. Yes we have legal gun owners here, yes we have not very nice people importing drugs and the like but I find it very difficult to imagine a situation where it would be critical to shoot someone within the hour.

It's a lot more feasible for your house to be burgled. I could install bars on my windows and fit an alarm system which would greatly reduce the risk - I don't though, because I value the quality of life that not doing brings.

There are places in the world where armed police are necessary and a proportionate precaution. The IOM is not one of them, in fact I could think of few other places where it was more unnecessary.

I can see that some people may believe armed police are necessary here and although I don't agree, I can see the argument that it does little harm to have a (very) small number of trained officers and an even smaller number of weapons 

To have them routinely walking the streets here though is just fucking mental. It's totally disproportionate to the level of threat, not to mention a complete waste of money and gives a completely false impression of the island to anyone visiting. It's laughable to be honest.

[TheTeapot]

They're arming themselves against you.

[Anyone]

The police don’t really like to be challenged especially by civilians. Most of the police scandals over the years , and there are lot of them with no sign of letting up , tend to show a closing of ranks , disdain for the public , ass covering and straight out lying. There do seem to be a lot of armed responses these days but the reason for that is basically none of our business - that seems to be the attitude Derek is putting forward. I suppose as long as they don’t shoot someone by accident then that’s ok. Armed officers I’ve seen in the UK tend to have a look though. Muscled , overly so. 

[The Phantom]

9 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

I don't think anyone feels threatened by them, everyone has been somewhere where they are a common sight, they're not particularly intimidating, some may even find them reassuring.

The point is they're just not necessary here. Yes we have legal gun owners here, yes we have not very nice people importing drugs and the like but I find it very difficult to imagine a situation where it would be critical to shoot someone within the hour.

It's a lot more feasible for your house to be burgled. I could install bars on my windows and fit an alarm system which would greatly reduce the risk - I don't though, because I value the quality of life that not doing brings.

There are places in the world where armed police are necessary and a proportionate precaution. The IOM is not one of them, in fact I could think of few other places where it was more unnecessary.

I can see that some people may believe armed police are necessary here and although I don't agree, I can see the argument that it does little harm to have a (very) small number of trained officers and an even smaller number of weapons 

To have them routinely walking the streets here though is just fucking mental. It's totally disproportionate to the level of threat, not to mention a complete waste of money and gives a completely false impression of the island to anyone visiting. It's laughable to be honest.

One of the first posts specifically referred to them be 'intimidated'. As I said in a previous 'police with guns are bad' threads, you're statistically more likely to be killed by a police car and no one is terrified of them! 

[Roger Mexico]

10 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

One of the first posts specifically referred to them be 'intimidated'. As I said in a previous 'police with guns are bad' threads, you're statistically more likely to be killed by a police car and no one is terrified of them! 

But even now police are more likely to be driving around in a car than wandering around with guns, so it's not really a good comparison.

[cissolt]

49 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

The Police Facebook post is pretty similar to what we've seen from other such 'operations':

Armed Police and police negotiators responded to an incident in Ramsey in the early hours of Sunday 15th September, the details of the incident are under investigation and the police cannot comment at this stage. A male was detained by armed officers after surrendering himself to them around 09:30am in the area of Albert Street, Ramsey. Police would like to reassure the public that this was an isolated incident and the public are not at risk. Additionally they would like to reassure the public that the use of armed officers was necessary, that the male was not injured during the arrest and is currently safe and well.

The fact they feel compelled to tell us "the use of armed officers was necessary" is telling.   Though given that Our Man Flint assures us that it is necessary in every possible situation ("You never know when someone being issued a parking ticket might kick off"; "That elderly tourist asking the way to Peel Castle might really be a terrorist"), it doesn't tell us much about what actually happened.  There's no suggestion that there is any third party involvement, so you wonder if the arrested male was any danger to anyone, except possibly himself.

The trouble is we've seen similar incidents before, where the charges that arose in the end amounted (at best) to "someone being a bit mouthy".  So we're entitled to be a bit cynical.  Maybe it will turn out to be justified and it's too soon to make a final judgement, but people are going to sceptical for the moment.

Perhaps if they told us the justification for sending in an armed response team to the incident?  This is becoming a daily occurrence, with no justification from the police.  

It's only a matter of time before an unwarranted discharge.

 

[A fool and his money.....]

17 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

But even now police are more likely to be driving around in a car than wandering around with guns, so it's not really a good comparison.

Although talk of likelihood is kind of ironic in a thread about armed police on the IOM, where nobody has ever needed to be shot by police and nor is anyone ever likely to.

[Gladys]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

The Police Facebook post is pretty similar to what we've seen from other such 'operations':

Armed Police and police negotiators responded to an incident in Ramsey in the early hours of Sunday 15th September, the details of the incident are under investigation and the police cannot comment at this stage. A male was detained by armed officers after surrendering himself to them around 09:30am in the area of Albert Street, Ramsey. Police would like to reassure the public that this was an isolated incident and the public are not at risk. Additionally they would like to reassure the public that the use of armed officers was necessary, that the male was not injured during the arrest and is currently safe and well.

The fact they feel compelled to tell us "the use of armed officers was necessary" is telling.   Though given that Our Man Flint assures us that it is necessary in every possible situation ("You never know when someone being issued a parking ticket might kick off"; "That elderly tourist asking the way to Peel Castle might really be a terrorist"), it doesn't tell us much about what actually happened.  There's no suggestion that there is any third party involvement, so you wonder if the arrested male was any danger to anyone, except possibly himself.

The trouble is we've seen similar incidents before, where the charges that arose in the end amounted (at best) to "someone being a bit mouthy".  So we're entitled to be a bit cynical.  Maybe it will turn out to be justified and it's too soon to make a final judgement, but people are going to sceptical for the moment.

Possibly a mental health issue? 

[A fool and his money.....]

I think it tells you everything you need to know about what the IOM is becoming - that in terms of our emergency planning, we see no need to provide any kind of assistance whatsoever to visitors stricken by weather related ferry delays, to the point we'll happily kick them out into the rain in the middle of the night despite them having nowhere to go.

And yet at the same time, we're not satisfied with spending long thousands on tooling up and continuously arms training a good proportion of the police force, but feel the need to have them wandering the streets armed to the teeth just in case multiple people need shooting in a shorter time than it would take them to respond from the police station.

How many ferry cancellations do we have a year? How many times has anyone, ever needed to be shot by police here?

Edited Sunday at 05:06 PM by A fool and his money.....