Your pension to be used to fund the NHS from 2024?

[asitis]

23 minutes ago, woolley said:

Goodness me. Talk about risk averse. I'm surprised they even took the gamble of coming here for the day, just in case! I'm glad I never took decisions when I was younger based on the prospect of getting old and ill. What a grim way to look at life. We did what made us happy at the time, and largely still do. The Isle of Man makes us happy.

Yes, we live on a remote island of 85,000. It's always been the case that if you have an acute medical event, the chances of a good outcome are somewhat poorer than if you lived in a city close to a centre of excellence. We're an air ambulance flight away from specialised procedures in a number of disciplines. That's just a fact of island life that could never be changed even with limitless resources.

Taken overall, though, among my own friends and family in the past 10 years, Manx residents with similar illnesses have fared as well or better than UK residents. Nobles is pretty good at patching you up till you get there if necessary. Horror stories come out of every hospital.

I agree entirely, my point was, in attracting individuals to move to and enjoy pay the CS pensions, the island is seen by people in various ways, of which future health care is clearly one ! Cannan cannot afford for any part of the islands infrastructure to be seen or perceived to be failing if his ruse is to work for younger professional families !

[The Phantom]

30 minutes ago, Jarndyce said:

I think you might need to do more research, specifically about the use of “physician associates”.

Happy to do more research where required.  To be honest I didn't even know what they were called.  But my comments are coming from people I actually know doing it.  The 'Health Visitor' worked at the Nursery my kid went to and I bumped into last week and had a chat.  The 'Physician Associate' is a neighbour a few doors down, who was a teacher, took time out due to multiple kids and recently gone back to work but fancied a change. I saw her on a ward I visited last week and wondered what she was up to.  Obviously she'll receive training, not sure if she will be a full Phyisician Associate or not (just googled). 

[Non-Believer]

51 minutes ago, woolley said:

Yeah, but I have difficulty buying that. How is it self-interest to jeopardise the finances of the state that you hope will one day pay your gold plated pension? It really isn't safeguarding entitlement. The opposite, really. Unless you subscribe to the "something will come along" theory.

This is purely personal opinion but it's based on some local experience.

The fact is that the gold plated pension isn't in jeopardy at all. As we have and are seeing, it's the very last thing to the butcher's block, everything else is being sacrificed to this, hence the £40M gap already being filled from taxation and other revenues. Believe me, the recipients know this and all their rights pertaining.

And that's precisely why we continue sailing on this course in the hope that something will just turn up out of the blue to resolve all the fiscal ills rather than taking any real action to address them, as we have for the last 15+ years; because for some, their pay and superannuation are cast iron. There is not the threat that the private sector faces. And they can just dream up unworkable ideas to sustain this position, like increasing the population to 100k to pay for it, which a Govt committee itself has now just ridiculed on the basis of the lack of infrastructure to support.

We may be past the point of no return now 🤷‍♂️

[cissolt]

25 minutes ago, manxman8180 said:

So just for the purposes of stimulating a debate - I propose we do use the NI fund for other purposes and support longer term strategic investments (pretty much the same way as any private pension fund would work).

It has to be on the right things though....

So, let's say Government actually took the housing challenge seriously.  Build 1000 affordable homes in the next 2 years.  Taking a wild stab at build cost of £150k - funded by taking £150m out of the NI fund.  £1000 p/m mortgage (Government) over 20 years, £240m back into the coffers.

So at even a modest repayment level, you replace the capital and achieve a return over 20 years (when you wouldn't have needed to draw on the initial capital anyway.  Plus you have provided 1000 homes for our young people, key workers etc etc - and derived exchequer benefit from related employment.  You may even start to tip the balance on the birth rate if younger people can afford to live and raise a family.

Yes, you would get a return on the £150m if you just left it and invested etc - but at the same rate?  And even so, you wouldn't get the ancillary benefits.

I'm sure there are a myriad of models where you could offer mid rents and hold the capital asset etc - but I'd need more time and brain cells.  Likewise there are likely loads of other infrastructure projects you could use the NI fund for on the basis of longer term payback (airport improvements anyone???)

So there you go - I think we should use the NI fund to invest for the future - shoot me down.

Haven't we already done this with MDC effectively?  Handed over land and loans with a return in the future?  At least that's what I believe the intent was.... nobody really wants to talk about how we get a return

[woolley]

2 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

This is purely personal opinion but it's based on some local experience.

The fact is that the gold plated pension isn't in jeopardy at all. As we have and are seeing, it's the very last thing to the butcher's block, everything else is being sacrificed to this, hence the £40M gap already being filled from taxation and other revenues. Believe me, the recipients know this and all their rights pertaining.

And that's precisely why we continue sailing on this course in the hope that something will just turn up out of the blue to resolve all the fiscal ills rather than taking any real action to address them, as we have for the last 15+ years; because for some, their pay and superannuation are cast iron. There is not the threat that the private sector faces. And they can just dream up unworkable ideas to sustain this position, like increasing the population to 100k to pay for it, which a Govt committee itself has now just ridiculed on the basis of the lack of infrastructure to support.

We may be past the point of no return now 🤷‍♂️

The gold plated pension is certainly in jeopardy given the current rate of attrition the reserves are being subjected to. If the pensions are a decade or two away, it's looking decidedly shaky. Maybe they just believe their own rhetoric.

[Non-Believer]

6 minutes ago, woolley said:

The gold plated pension is certainly in jeopardy given the current rate of attrition the reserves are being subjected to. If the pensions are a decade or two away, it's looking decidedly shaky. Maybe they just believe their own rhetoric.

That and their belief that it will be supported whatever is unstinting and for many the pensions may be only 10 years or less away.

Last Budget figures revealed that PS pensions cost every man woman and child on the Island @ £1500. Given 84,000, that's £124M a year with a current £40M shortfall, projected to increase until the mid-2030s.

Those aren't reasonable figures for anybody yet we continue to be bled to try and pay it because "they are entitled and were promised". EVERYTHING is being sacrificed at this altar. You could say that we're now down to trying to flog minibuses to pay for it.

[Jarndyce]

2 hours ago, The Phantom said:

Obviously she'll receive training, not sure if she will be a full Phyisician Associate or not (just googled)

Physician Associates aren't allowed to prescribe.   As soon as a drug enters the picture - in hospital or in GP-land - they have to run and get an actual doctor.

[woolley]

34 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

That and their belief that it will be supported whatever is unstinting and for many the pensions may be only 10 years or less away.

Last Budget figures revealed that PS pensions cost every man woman and child on the Island @ £1500. Given 84,000, that's £124M a year with a current £40M shortfall, projected to increase until the mid-2030s.

Those aren't reasonable figures for anybody yet we continue to be bled to try and pay it because "they are entitled and were promised". EVERYTHING is being sacrificed at this altar. You could say that we're now down to trying to flog minibuses to pay for it.

The pension may be only 10 or 20 years away, but that's just the start. They'll want it to be paid for a further 20 to 30 years to fund the comfortable retirement. Against that backdrop, the sensible, safeguarding course of action for the senior civil service to take would be to stop the expansion and tighten the belt.

[The Phantom]

1 hour ago, Jarndyce said:

Physician Associates aren't allowed to prescribe.   As soon as a drug enters the picture - in hospital or in GP-land - they have to run and get an actual doctor.

Oh I know that. It was more handing over the medication for the patient to take once the Doc and Pharmacist have done their bits.

Basically exactly what the pharmacy assistants to at Boots. You don't need a nurse for that. Yes I know a Pharmcy Assistant does some training. But it's not much more than a text book and a test. 

Edited Thursday at 06:44 PM by The Phantom

[Non-Believer]

1 hour ago, woolley said:

The pension may be only 10 or 20 years away, but that's just the start. They'll want it to be paid for a further 20 to 30 years to fund the comfortable retirement. Against that backdrop, the sensible, safeguarding course of action for the senior civil service to take would be to stop the expansion and tighten the belt.

Agreed....but if the current funded part of the scheme is a Ponzi.....then expanding the numbers is the only way to maintain it without further burden on the taxpayers, some of whom who must surely be getting close to breaking point.

Big of the cs.

[Jarndyce]

26 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Basically exactly what the pharmacy assistants to at Boots. You don't need a nurse for that. Yes I know a Pharmcy Assistant does some training. But it's not much more than a text book and a test.

I assume you’re getting your information on pharmacy assistants from your friendly PA?   You’ve made your mind up on this - I give up.

eta: PS - if you go for a GP appointment and see a PA instead, let me know if you can tell the difference…

Edited Thursday at 07:06 PM by Jarndyce
eta

[The Phantom]

19 minutes ago, Jarndyce said:

I assume you’re getting your information on pharmacy assistants from your friendly PA?   You’ve made your mind up on this - I give up.

eta: PS - if you go for a GP appointment and see a PA instead, let me know if you can tell the difference…

When I was 16/17 I was considering becoming a Pharmacist. I had a Saturday job at boots on the Pharmacy, read the text book and did the test. Sufficient knowledge of the subject for you?

I'm not suggesting they prescribe nor make the diagnosis that requires the drugs. 

[Jarndyce]

5 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Sufficient knowledge of the subject for you?

No.

Doesn’t demonstrate that you have any knowledge regarding the job description of a physician associate, which is nothing to do with pharmacy.   They’re regarded as a cheap way of replacing junior doctors and GPs as a first contact.   Are you actually mixing up pharmacy assistants with physician associates?

eta: https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/medical-associate-professions/roles-medical-associate-professions/physician-associate

Edited Thursday at 07:32 PM by Jarndyce
eta

[Andy Onchan]

11 hours ago, Jarndyce said:

I assume you’re getting your information on pharmacy assistants from your friendly PA?   You’ve made your mind up on this - I give up.

eta: PS - if you go for a GP appointment and see a PA instead, let me know if you can tell the difference…

Probably not a lot of difference as some GPs in my practice openly admit to looking stuff up on Google!

[Jarndyce]

43 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

Probably not a lot of difference as some GPs in my practice openly admit to looking stuff up on Google!

You’ll be fine, then…