Volunteers to clean up the island

[The Bastard]

1 hour ago, Thefella said:

But they aren’t limited in budgets or resources are they? They are just very badly mis managed. If you want to crack on cleaning hedges for free in your own time when there’s someone on £120K paid for by your taxes in charge of the DOI who is paid to make sure the hedge rows are clean but fails in that duty it makes you a complete mug. 

You're not living in the real world if you imagine that budgets are unlimited and everything that's not being done is just because someone chooses not to do it for some other reason. Again, it's a choice, if you're angry at the world and lazy you can stay at home and whinge instead.

[Non-Believer]

2 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

You're not living in the real world if you imagine that budgets are unlimited and everything that's not being done is just because someone chooses not to do it for some other reason. Again, it's a choice, if you're angry at the world and lazy you can stay at home and whinge instead.

Budgets are limited, that's because other things are being prioritised. Those limited budgets are not necessarily being well-managed either. We're in a position where we are employing as many managers and admin as we are hands-on workers and that's why it's unsustainable. Trying to get people to volunteer won't fix that, albeit well-intended. There needs to be a clear out and a reset but it won't happen.

[Moghrey Mie]

4 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Will you be volunteering then?

Yes I already do with Beach Buddies and the Green Centre.

[Derek Flint]

2 hours ago, The Bastard said:

Still limited in budget and resource though, which limits the capability to do things. Governments prioritise what they can do with a budget, and that isn't always things like maintaining legacy infrastructure, footpaths and tracks , clearing, painting and fixing. Volunteering extends that capability- things that don't necessarily get to the top of the budgeting list get attention, which benefits everyone.

And it's false economy. Because the place starts to look like Havana. Then people give up, and the decay and damage accelerates. Then nobody wants to live there, or investment....

1 hour ago, Thefella said:

But they aren’t limited in budgets or resources are they? They are just very badly mis managed. If you want to crack on cleaning hedges for free in your own time when there’s someone on £120K paid for by your taxes in charge of the DOI who is paid to make sure the hedge rows are clean but fails in that duty it makes you a complete mug. 

I do think that it gives the public a voice though, and makes it easier to hold to account.

[Tinpot]

Its a sad reflection of the world we live in that people manage to turn this into a negative.  Its an invitation for a community to work together and make the island a slightly nicer place to live and possibly met new people and build some friendships as well.

Our neighborhood actually does something similar already.  There is no need for the commissioners to send roadsweepers or people spraying weeds down here because every now and then on a Sunday morning a few of us just meet up and do a few bits ourselves.  Those of us young enough and fit enough do a few bits for the elderly neighbors and it tends to finish up with a pleasant afternoon in the pub. 

We now know nearly all the neighbours and the whole area is generally a nicer place to live.

I fully expect the usual smart arses will be along ion a minute with some "witty" comments, but if you don't want to get involved then don't bother but don't moan about the fact that some other people do and will more than likely get some pleasure and good experiences out of it.  Much better to sit behind a keyboard moaning that to get involved eh?

[Moghrey Mie]

6 minutes ago, Tinpot said:

Its a sad reflection of the world we live in that people manage to turn this into a negative.  Its an invitation for a community to work together and make the island a slightly nicer place to live and possibly met new people and build some friendships as well.

Our neighborhood actually does something similar already.  There is no need for the commissioners to send roadsweepers or people spraying weeds down here because every now and then on a Sunday morning a few of us just meet up and do a few bits ourselves.  Those of us young enough and fit enough do a few bits for the elderly neighbors and it tends to finish up with a pleasant afternoon in the pub. 

We now know nearly all the neighbours and the whole area is generally a nicer place to live.

I fully expect the usual smart arses will be along ion a minute with some "witty" comments, but if you don't want to get involved then don't bother but don't moan about the fact that some other people do and will more than likely get some pleasure and good experiences out of it.  Much better to sit behind a keyboard moaning that to get involved eh?

4 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Will you be volunteering then?

Yes I already do with Beach Buddies and the Green Centre when they do Tidy Up Britain days.

[Moghrey Mie]

Just now, Moghrey Mie said:

Yes I already do with Beach Buddies and the Green Centre when they do Tidy Up Britain days.

https://www.keepbritaintidy.org/join-uk’s-largest-litter-picking-community

[The Bastard]

6 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

And it's false economy. Because the place starts to look like Havana. Then people give up, and the decay and damage accelerates. Then nobody wants to live there, or investment....

I do think that it gives the public a voice though, and makes it easier to hold to account.

A volunteering program doesn't magically accelerate decay though. If you've walked the beaches in recent years, you'll have seen the difference that Beach Buddies have made. I always bring a rubbish bag when I'm beach-walking and there have been days where I've hardly picked up anything on beaches that used to be covered in discarded waste from fishing boats and domestic rubbish. Plastic Busters have done a great job around town. Years ago, the conservation volunteers used to build paths and repair bridges that are still around. Volunteering actively improves the local environment, even if it's a small thing like clearing up rubbish in a beauty spot, rather than just photoing it and complaining on Facebook.

[reptar]

It's a big mistake, the more of 'their' stuff that other people do for them, the less they'll bother to do themselves. It's exactly the same as kids as they get older.

[The Bastard]

1 minute ago, reptar said:

It's a big mistake, the more of 'their' stuff that other people do for them, the less they'll bother to do themselves. It's exactly the same as kids as they get older.

It depends on the standards of the community,which can be changed with education and changes in attitude. An example I heard from someone recently is there's very few litter bins in central Tokyo but the main streets aren't covered in rubbish because people take their rubbish home and it's just considered unacceptable to drop it in the street because of the obvious negative impact. That's a choice that has a big impact on the community. Volunteering isn't necessarily about competing with "their" core services either, it supplements them in other areas where spending public money wouldn't be justifiable. You wouldn't want armies of full-time paid workers to be picking up rubbish on the beaches, for example, when there are far better things to spend on, but Beach Buddies shows a small army of volunteers can do a great job with a minimal investment around it. It improves quality of life where budgets just aren't around to cover it.

[FANDL]

59 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Trying to get people to volunteer won't fix that, albeit well-intended. There needs to be a clear out and a reset but it won't happen.

And of course in the past when concerned citizens have offered to undertake this sort of volunteer work some have been threatened with court action:

https://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/bollards-repainted-after-brush-with-law-224872

Such as in the above case where the Douglas bin protester Mark Wheeler was threatened with arrest and told that anyone who interferes with a post forming part of, or placed in or on a highway is guilty of an offence under the Highways Act 1996 when he tried to voluntarily improve his run down local area by offering to paint some bollards on the Terrace as the DOI hadn’t painted them for over six years.

This is the government resource we are actually paying for. Not constructive resource that supplies labour to paint and maintain things. But an army of twats who clearly have nothing better to do than waste weeks and weeks pursuing childish, frivolous and malicious acts against the public when anyone complains. 

The case of Mr Wheeler is generally why people don’t volunteer as government workers actively hate those who are prepared to provide their labour for free out of public spiritedness as it might undercut someone’s non job driving a van around pretending to maintain infrastructure together with the roles of the managers managing the van that drives round doing nothing. 

 

[Derek Flint]

52 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

A volunteering program doesn't magically accelerate decay though. If you've walked the beaches in recent years, you'll have seen the difference that Beach Buddies have made. I always bring a rubbish bag when I'm beach-walking and there have been days where I've hardly picked up anything on beaches that used to be covered in discarded waste from fishing boats and domestic rubbish. Plastic Busters have done a great job around town. Years ago, the conservation volunteers used to build paths and repair bridges that are still around. Volunteering actively improves the local environment, even if it's a small thing like clearing up rubbish in a beauty spot, rather than just photoing it and complaining on Facebook.

That's pretty much what I said think. It's not an instant panacea, but over time the culture changes and improvements come about

36 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

It depends on the standards of the community,which can be changed with education and changes in attitude. An example I heard from someone recently is there's very few litter bins in central Tokyo but the main streets aren't covered in rubbish because people take their rubbish home and it's just considered unacceptable to drop it in the street because of the obvious negative impact. That's a choice that has a big impact on the community. Volunteering isn't necessarily about competing with "their" core services either, it supplements them in other areas where spending public money wouldn't be justifiable. You wouldn't want armies of full-time paid workers to be picking up rubbish on the beaches, for example, when there are far better things to spend on, but Beach Buddies shows a small army of volunteers can do a great job with a minimal investment around it. It improves quality of life where budgets just aren't around to cover it.

Japan is remarkable in this respect. Everybody cares. People sweep up around their street, they take rubbish home with them too. The services reciprocate this with immaculate trains and buses, for example.

Recently back from there and the difference is profound

[The Bastard]

1 minute ago, FANDL said:

And of course in the past when concerned citizens have offered to undertake this sort of volunteer work some have been threatened with court action:

https://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/bollards-repainted-after-brush-with-law-224872

Such as in the above case where the Douglas bin protester Mark Wheeler was threatened with arrest and told that anyone who interferes with a post forming part of, or placed in or on a highway is guilty of an offence under the Highways Act 1996 when he tried to voluntarily improve his run down local area by offering to paint some bollards on the Terrace as the DOI hadn’t painted them for over six years.

This is the government resource we are actually paying for. Not constructive resource that supplies labour to paint and maintain things. But an army of twats who clearly have nothing better to do than waste weeks and weeks pursuing childish, frivolous and malicious acts against the public when anyone complains. 

The case of Mr Wheeler is generally why people don’t volunteer as government workers actively hate those who are prepared to provide their labour for free out of public spiritedness as it might undercut someone’s non job driving a van around pretending to maintain infrastructure together with the roles of the managers managing the van that drives round doing nothing. 

That's not comparable though. The phantom bollard-painter was effectively using it as a threat, rather than working as a volunteer. There was no overall supervision, so no idea what he was going to do, whether every passer-by would end up covered in paint, or whether he'd get run over while he was lying in the gutter with a brush. There was no plan whether he'd paint them luminous pink with green stripes, and whether all the paint would run off at the first sign of rain, or be impossible to repaint without angle-grinding it all off first. That's not how volunteering works, it's cooperation, with the right frameworks to protect volunteers and give them the right equipment to do the job. It's not about banging on some paint or a few nails or some ad-hoc wiring where you think it needs doing.

[A fool and his money.....]

I think this is a good thing and I have no doubt that a lot of good people will volunteer and will make a difference.

I can't help wondering when a Volunteer Services Coordinator job will pop up on Jobtrain though with a£70K salary and movie star relocation package though.

[FANDL]

6 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

There was no plan whether he'd paint them luminous pink with green stripes, and whether all the paint would run off at the first sign of rain, or be impossible to repaint without angle-grinding it all off first. That's not how volunteering works, it's cooperation, with the right frameworks to protect volunteers and give them the right equipment to do the job. It's not about banging on some paint or a few nails or some ad-hoc wiring where you think it needs doing.

According to Wheeler he simply approached them to ask for the paint code so that it was done to standard in the right colour and they threatened to take him to court from there. Somewhat amusingly the newspaper article contains the following quote:

DoI maintenance manager Alan Hardinge replied on November 23 saying that the work would be done that weekend. Mr Hardinge wrote: ’I do appreciate that this work has taken longer than anticipated. However, we have followed the correct procurement procedures to engage a suitably qualified contractor.’

Presumably after a long and arduous procurement process that would be a contractor who had a paint brush and who had an employee who knew how to use a paintbrush? Also did they apply the same arduous assessment process on the volunteers who painted the railings on Marine Drive mentioned in the original news story?

This is exactly why nobody volunteers as government does not want free labour doing work that it could be pretending to do.