Us Uses Foreign States To Torture People

[Karellen]

Shuttling terrorists out of Europe - whats wrong with that? Would you rather the terrorists stayed here and blew up a few more London busses or Spanish trains?

[Lonan3]

Shuttling terrorists out of Europe - whats wrong with that?

 

Because they are suspects according to 'American Intelligence.' Think about it. Where is there any evidence that such a thing exists?

 

And just to remind you:

The Washington Post also reported that dozens of prisoners had been wrongly taken under rendition, with some kidnapped in their home countries and held incommunicado for weeks.

[P.K.]

So it seems that the world's best-funded intelligence agency is fighting fire with fire.

 

Good.

 

In this kind of war you have to be as brutal as the opposition to win.

 

Do any of you bleeding-heart liberals think there will be protests from, say, Spain?

[Amadeus]

ah so...the man in the pub aka crinkly old git aka anorak in bush with binoculars tells me that it can positively be proved that the following US registered executive jets have visited on stop overs at Ronaldsway, as follows

No shit, Sherlock Aircrafts have used Ronaldsway? And US executive jets have landed here? On the airport of an international finance centre?

 

an now Biggles mate "Chuck Jaeger" with the Langley connection gives the info as to who those planes are registered to :

 

1) = surprise surprise an IOM co called Longborough Limited - who dat den??

You mean the Cessna Citation, tail number N606AT ? I hate to piss on your pie here, but my spies tell me that this aircraft is registered to Longborough Aviation in Wilmington, US.

 

Ok, I'm lying - it weren't my spies who told me, it was the aircraft register.

 

You are right that there's a company with that name over here (similar name, anyway - for the purpose of any good conspiracy, that must do..), but that's in Peel, and CIA + Peel = No Sense...

[cheesemonster2005]

Shuttling terrorists out of Europe - whats wrong with that? Would you rather the terrorists stayed here and blew up a few more London busses or Spanish trains?

 

The alledged flights aren't just about shuttling people out of Europe. The most damning suggestions are that the US is using foreign soil to torture terrorists as they can't do this (technically) on US soil - or at least in the 50 US states. What they do on Guantanamo seems to be whatever they want.

[Loki]

The Washington Post also reported that dozens of prisoners had been wrongly taken under rendition, with some kidnapped in their home countries and held incommunicado for weeks.

 

Somehow I don't think the CIA, (if they are picking up this people) are doing it just for fun.

 

I also think that a foreign Government would also be happy for the CIA to pick up the suspects and question them. The USA would have to pick up the cost, deal with the problem and if anything goes wrong would receive the blame and the foreign government could deny having any real knowledge of what is or has been happening.

 

I am actually surprised that the USA is not using the British SAS to do their dirty work, so they can share any potential blame/negative press with someone else.

[cheesemonster2005]

Somehow I don't think the CIA, (if they are picking up this people) are doing it just for fun.

 

I also think that a foreign Government would also be happy for the CIA to pick up the suspects and question them. The USA would have to pick up the cost, deal with the problem and if anything goes wrong would receive the blame and the foreign government could deny having any real knowledge of what is or has been happening.

 

I am actually surprised that the USA is not using the British SAS to do their dirty work, so they can share any potential blame/negative press with someone else.

 

What is considered a threat to the Americans may be very different to what we or other Europeans consider to be a threat. If the Americans were so certain about these people's guilt then they should request extradition and interogate them on US soil like with other crimes. By torturing them and holding them illegally they are ensuring that, if guilty, nothing can be done using a court of law because the Americans broke every Genevea convention rule and international law.

[mollag]

So it seems that the world's best-funded intelligence agency is fighting fire with fire.

 

Good.

 

In this kind of war you have to be as brutal as the opposition to win.

 

Do any of you bleeding-heart liberals think there will be protests from, say, Spain?

 

 

Just for clarity, do you agree with assasination and torture as being right and proper methods to use in a democratic society.?

[Lonan3]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1660570,00.html

 

Condoleezza Rice began her tour of Europe yesterday with a rare public admission that the US had made "mistakes" in the war on terror.

"We recognise that any policy will sometimes result in errors," the US secretary of state said. She added: "When this happens we will do everything we can to rectify it."

Her comments in Berlin came at the start of her five-day tour, which takes in Romania, Ukraine and Brussels. The visit has been accompanied by a wave of criticism from across Europe over the CIA's practice of transferring terrorist suspects to third countries for interrogation.

There were also new and embarrassing revelations yesterday that the CIA had closed down its secret jails in eastern Europe after their existence was revealed early last month by the Washington Post. According to ABC, citing CIA officials, the prisons believed to be in Poland and Romania were shut last month.

Standing next to Ms Rice, Ms Merkel yesterday said that the US had "accepted" it had "erroneously taken" Mr Masri, who spent five months in a freezing Afghan jail after the CIA grabbed him in Macedonia.

The affair is also bad news for Germany's former government under Gerhard Schröder. It apparently knew about the CIA blunder but agreed to US requests to say nothing about it.

[Amadeus]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1660570,00.html

The affair is also bad news for Germany's former government under Gerhard Schröder. It apparently knew about the CIA blunder but agreed to US requests to say nothing about it.

We said knew nothing back home, absolutely nothing

[Rog]

So it seems that the world's best-funded intelligence agency is fighting fire with fire.

 

Good.

 

In this kind of war you have to be as brutal as the opposition to win.

 

Do any of you bleeding-heart liberals think there will be protests from, say, Spain?

 

 

Just for clarity, do you agree with assasination and torture as being right and proper methods to use in a democratic society.?

 

 

I’ve been keeping out of this so far being interested to simply watch the responses.

 

Firstly I totally support KP’s observation. 100%.

 

And to molag – my answer is yes. When faced with a foe who lives in a different reality from you then you need to enter his reality to communicate with him.

 

HE has brought assassination into our society, HE uses torture on those form our society that he captures, torture and assassination are the norm and an accepted fact to him. If we do not adopt a common language with him then we are at a disadvantage.

 

I have written this before and probably will do again. We are facing people who live in a different world than we do. A world wherein compromise is defeat, where clemency is cowardice, where negotiation is simply one side agreeing the terms of their surrender and where life itself has no value and everything is about what happens after death.

 

Unless we have people who do understand the realities of this global war – and make NO mistake, that is precisely what it is with Iraq just the major battleground at present – we are going to fail.

 

And failure will not result in a negotiated end to hostilities and one side going back to living their way and the other their own.. That is what will happen if we win. If we fail then goodbye twenty first century, Goodbye scientific discovery, goodbye civil freedoms as we know, goodbye life AS we know it for us and our kids and their kids for generations to come.

 

This is not hyperbole.

 

I have lived and worked with and by the people who hold the views that I describe and make no mistake although they are not quite in the majority of their kin in GB today they most certainly ARE in the majority of the rest of the world.

 

We can not and more to the point MUST NOT apply our standards in deciding what is and is not right in the management and treatment of these people. We must do what must be done according to their standards and the agenda that they have set.

 

‘Laissez les bon temps roule’ as far as I’m concerned.

[Amadeus]

Err..Rog: Before we let the good times roll, what about the prisoners that were wrongfully arrested and tortured by the US? Are they just "collateral damage" in the fight against the evils of Islam ?

 

I just can't see the US as being very good at gathering intelligence and all that - they're track record seems to confirm this, and just saying "sorry old chap - no offence, but we had to torture you.." isn't enough somehow...

[Rog]

Err..Rog: Before we let the good times roll, what about the prisoners that were wrongfully arrested and tortoured by the US? Are they just "collateral damage" in the fight against the evils of Islam ?

 

Yes. And the fight is a fight of islam against the West. We are defending ourselves.

[Amadeus]

Err..Rog: Before we let the good times roll, what about the prisoners that were wrongfully arrested and tortoured by the US? Are they just "collateral damage" in the fight against the evils of Islam ?

 

Yes. And the fight is a fight of islam against the West. We are defending ourselves.

Ok, so if the Men in Black suddenly arrest you or a member of your family, simply because they had "some sort of information", then that's ok as well ?

 

Sorry to bring out this old standard argument, but if you're really serious about all this, then we might as well swap the letters USA with CCCP, and rename the CIA to KGB - nastrovje!

[Rog]

Ok, so if the Men in Black suddenly arrest you or a member of your family, simply because they had "some sort of information", then that's ok as well ?

 

Sorry to bring out this old standard argument, but if you're really serious about all this, then we might as well swap the letters USA with CCCP, and rename the CIA to KGB - nastrovje!

 

Obviously I would be far from impressed at being dragged in under suspicion and especially so if I were innocent but ----.

 

But we are not facing normal times. We are at war but so many people don’t or won’t face up to it and it’s a cliché but nonetheless true that bad things happen in war.

 

We are loosing civil rights and freedoms, we are facing restrictions on what we can do and we do face the possibility that we may get caught up in things but that is NOT the fault of our security services, it is absolutely the fault of those whose actions, both those that they have done and those that they would do, cause our security organisations to HAVE to undertake.

 

It is in part our very freedoms that result in some actions such as the imprisonment at camp X-Ray of the terrorist and unlawful combatants in order to ensure that legislation drawn up for times of peace is not accessible to people who have been engaging in activities that would never happen in times of peace.

 

What is important in my opinion is not that these things are happening – I would be far more concerned if they were not – but that they are used correctly and that can not be for courts set up to deal with civilian issues and legislation that is not connected with the actions of war to decide. Nor the press and especially not public opinion, that being probably the worst of all to pass judgment.