Us Uses Foreign States To Torture People

[Karellen]

Err..Rog: Before we let the good times roll, what about the prisoners that were wrongfully arrested and tortoured by the US? Are they just "collateral damage" in the fight against the evils of Islam ?

 

Yes. And the fight is a fight of islam against the West. We are defending ourselves.

Ok, so if the Men in Black suddenly arrest you or a member of your family, simply because they had "some sort of information", then that's ok as well ?

 

Sorry to bring out this old standard argument, but if you're really serious about all this, then we might as well swap the letters USA with CCCP, and rename the CIA to KGB - nastrovje!

 

Whilst terrorists are willing to commit atrocities such as 9/11 and the Madrid and London bombings, then we live in extraordinary times which need extraordinary measures. If a handful of "innocent" people are wrongly locked up in the fight against these atrocities, then so be it; its regrettable but a price worth paying in the fight against those wanting to commit future atrocities.

 

Would you rather the terrorists were free to walk the streets?

 

The analogy between CCCP and USA doesnt fit - the old CCCP denied many freedoms to its population (apart from those high ranking party "officials" with their Zils and Dachas), whereas the USA promotes democracy and freedom.

[Chinahand]

Just to calm down you conspiracy freaks out there who think the Isle of Man is a major CIA rendition centre: 1) having a plane on the US register is much cheaper and more efficient than having it on the UK one. I am willing to bet the majority of the planes noted have a beneficial owner in the UK or even the Isle of Man.

2) Goose Bay, Newfoundland Canada, and Iqualuit, are the main entry points for small executive jets into North America: they don't have the range to get further in. Often they have to stop first in Iceland or Greenland before touching down in Canada. That is the reason Canada has come under scrutiny for involvement in renditions; IT WOULD be highly unusual if a small executive jet directly landed in the US from Europe (it would have had to be air to air refueled), its totally normal that planes are leaving the IOM to these locations (its like leaving london and getting onto the M25).

 

And for those who think torture is fine and dandy I'm reminded of a Law Lord who reviewed and condemed similar practices in Northern Ireland in the 1970's. He decried that abandonment of the tried and tested methods developed successfully in world war II that had effectively got information from Nazi fanatics and Japanese Kamakazi types. Back then we knew where the moral line was and, basically, followed it (obviously there are exceptions, but not routine abuses as seem to be occuring now).

 

Back in the cold war the US clearly understood that it had to portray itself as a defender of human rights and democracy against an enemy who repudiated those values. I really think the US has lost its way since then. The cold war was won because people saw that those values were valid and that the west did stick to them far better than the Soviet Union (I'm reminded of Ronald Regan's quip: "The difference between democracy and a People's Democracy is like the difference between a jacket and a straight jacket."

 

I don't agree, as some posters seem to think, Rog PK, that defeating terrorism is a matter of killing or locking away in a dark hole all the terrorists and sorry if innocents get killed or wrongly imprisioned along the way.

 

Al Qaeda will be defeated when the populations that currently sympathise with them and provide passive support to them (allowing them to prosletize, recruit and train) renounce them. Providing a clear choice between good and evil will make that happen much much more easily. The US is not providing that clear choice; in fact the Arab and Muslim street basically see the US as being on the side of the devil and when you see photos of Abu Graib and read of the experiences of innocent people kidnapped and tortured through the agencies of the US, I find it very difficult to counter anti-American propaganda.

 

I admire the US, think it is a force for good in the world, but on this I think their actions are indefensible.

 

I fully support the efforts of John McCain, a US senator who was tortured in Vietnam, to ensure the US military and the CIA renounces torture and it looks like this has happened:

 

U.S. shifts to ban cruelty to detainees abroad

 

With luck this will stop the renditions, but talk about an own goal by the US.

[Kiartyn Deiney]

Chinahand, thank you for being a voice of reason.

 

If the US wants to play the world's policeman, then they have to be above reproach. They claim to be against terrorism, but they act like terrorists themselves. America has surely lost its way and will continue to lose the moral high ground as long as the thugs in the White House remain in power.

[Lonan3]

Just try to imagine if this had happened to a friend, a relative or someone you love - someone innocent.

 

Mr Masri, a father of five and of Lebanese origin, was detained in Macedonia on New Year’s Eve 2003 on suspicion of having a false passport and because his name sounded like that of an al-Qaeda suspect.

He was held for 23 days in a windowless motel room before the head of the CIA’s Counterterrorist Centre’s al-Qaeda unit in Skopje persuaded the Macedonians to hand him over.

A former CIA official told The Washington Post that the local agency chief “believed he was someone else”. The official added: “She didn’t really know. She just had a hunch.”

Mr Masri was handcuffed and blindfolded, bundled into a van and driven to an airport building, where he was drugged and put in a jumpsuit. He said later that he had seen “seven or eight men with black clothing and wearing masks”.

He said that in Afghanistan he was put in the “salt pit”, a cold, dirty cellar with no light and one blanket. On the first night, he said, he was kicked, beaten and told: “You are here in a country where no one knows about you, in a country where there is no law. If you die, we will bury you, and no one will know.”

The CIA is said to have concluded by March that his passport was genuine and that it had the wrong man. It decided to release him, but he was held for two more months before being flown to Albania and dumped in a wood.

 

If that is 'American justice' or 'American values' then it's high time that the rest of the world distanced itself from them until the crazy Christian Fundamentalist in charge is removed from office and taken to a funny farm.

[Karellen]

Just try to imagine if this had happened to a friend, a relative or someone you love - someone innocent.

 

Just try to imagine if this man had been a terrorist, who went on to kill a friend, a relative or someone you love, and the authorities had done nothing about it.

[Karellen]

Just try to imagine if this had happened to a friend, a relative or someone you love - someone innocent.

 

Just try to imagine if this man had been a terrorist, who went on to kill a friend, a relative or someone you love, and the authorities had done nothing about it.

[mollag]

Assasination and torture whilst being banned by the UN are nevertheless essential tools of the dictator and despot, hitler , idi amin, stalin, pinochet etc

 

Are there any other methods of theirs that you would think suitable to use in your imagined scenarios .

[P.K.]

I don't agree, as some posters seem to think, Rog PK, that defeating terrorism is a matter of killing or locking away in a dark hole all the terrorists and sorry if innocents get killed or wrongly imprisioned along the way.

In this "war" difficult decisions have to be made by those in power and then others like the military have to get hard, ugly things done. Not because they want to, but because they have to. I would support reasonable measures in an attempt to save lives and happily leave the moral high ground to some politician who needs it more than the lives of their citizens. By reasonable I mean kidnapping suspects and taking them off somewhere where they can be quietly worked over, preferably by drugs.

 

Al Qaeda will be defeated when the populations that currently sympathise with them and provide passive support to them (allowing them to prosletize, recruit and train) renounce them. Providing a clear choice between good and evil will make that happen much much more easily. The US is not providing that clear choice; in fact the Arab and Muslim street basically see the US as being on the side of the devil and when you see photos of Abu Graib and read of the experiences of innocent people kidnapped and tortured through the agencies of the US, I find it very difficult to counter anti-American propaganda.

To achive this you would have to start by closing down all the Madrasas in places like Pakistan, Iran and so on, the House of Saud would have to go, the State of Israel would need to be wiped off the map, Sharia Law would have apply everywhere etc etc. Face it, it just ain't going to happen. So at the moment we are into containment and the best weapon for that is intelligence.

 

Even if the US was out of every Muslim land it would not make one jot of difference. So I still see it as a clear choice. Defeat the terrorists or go under. Because like it or not they are still headed our way. Just how do you bleeding-heart liberals propose to stop them? All laughable suggestions welcome.

[cheesemonster2005]

Back in the cold war the US clearly understood that it had to portray itself as a defender of human rights and democracy against an enemy who repudiated those values. I really think the US has lost its way since then. The cold war was won because people saw that those values were valid and that the west did stick to them far better than the Soviet Union (I'm reminded of Ronald Regan's quip: "The difference between democracy and a People's Democracy is like the difference between a jacket and a straight jacket."

 

I don't agree, as some posters seem to think, Rog PK, that defeating terrorism is a matter of killing or locking away in a dark hole all the terrorists and sorry if innocents get killed or wrongly imprisioned along the way.

 

I admire the US, think it is a force for good in the world, but on this I think their actions are indefensible.

 

I fully support the efforts of John McCain, a US senator who was tortured in Vietnam, to ensure the US military and the CIA renounces torture and it looks like this has happened:

 

I agree almost entirely with Chinahand's viewpoint. We must not adopt the tactics of those we're trying to defeat and must show ourselves to be an example of fairness and justice if we are to win this 'war'. Using torture will alienate people further and make mistakes which are hard to reverse.

 

I would agree that generally the US is a force for good but sometimes it is only a force for its own interests - often at the cost of the rest of the world.

[mollag]

PK

again with the bleeding heart liberals, your name ( USA archaic) for those with a different point of view. What would your title be, fascist perhaps the modern velvet fascist, whatever it is it is all to familiar considering the hague war crimes trials which as we speak are prosecuting people not defined as terrorists for carrying out the methods you propose, and quite rightly so.

 

I see no moral gap between you and the terrorists ie the end justifies the means and if innocents get hurt, tough shit.

I am saddened by these postings.

[P.K.]

Defeat the terrorists or go under. Because like it or not they are still headed our way. Just how do you bleeding-heart liberals propose to stop them? All laughable suggestions welcome.

PK

again with the bleeding heart liberals, your name ( USA archaic) for those with a different point of view. What would your title be, fascist perhaps the modern velvet fascist, whatever it is it is all to familiar considering the hague war crimes trials which as we speak are prosecuting people not defined as terrorists for carrying out the methods you propose, and quite rightly so.

 

I see no moral gap between you and the terrorists ie the end justifies the means and if innocents get hurt, tough shit.

I am saddened by these postings.

I notice you have not come up with a single idea on how we (in the west) can stop them.

 

But the situation saddens you.

 

Could it be that you are starting to grasp the reality?

 

Frankly you should be grateful that there are those willing to risk everything to protect you. Even though you state how you abhor their methods they will still protect you despite yourself. They are not fascists either. The last world war was a moral crusade to defeat facism and it's the same moral values this time around. Doesn't sit well with your view of the world, does it? Fortunately they don't need your support, they'll do it anyway. Because they realise that it has to be done.

 

Tell you what, you live in your world and I'll live in reality. Then we'll both be where we should be.

[simon]

torture doesn't work

 

listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

 

Given the overwhelmingly negative evidence, the really interesting question is not whether torture works but why so many people in our society want to believe that it works. At the moment, there is a myth in circulation, a fable that goes something like this: Radical terrorists will take advantage of our fussy legality, so we may have to suspend it to beat them. Radical terrorists mock our namby-pamby prisons, so we must make them tougher. Radical terrorists are nasty, so to defeat them we have to be nastier.

 

Perhaps it's reassuring to tell ourselves tales about the new forms of "toughness" we need, or to talk about the special rules we will create to defeat this special enemy. Unfortunately, that toughness is self-deceptive and self-destructive. Ultimately it will be self-defeating as well.

[mollag]

Simon, there are people who enjoy hurting others or take pleasure from it.

 

PK i offer no solutions to the problems, neither do you, but you do offer hurt and pain to innocents, you are not a realist at all, the 2nd WW was fought to keep us free from the likes of you, you sound nothing at all like the allies but disturbingly like the axis we fought.

 

As to they will do it anyway, not in my name and if i had the choice then i would prosecute any person directly or indirectly involved in torture, it is plainly and obviously wrong

[cheesemonster2005]

Frankly you should be grateful that there are those willing to risk everything to protect you. Even though you state how you abhor their methods they will still protect you despite yourself. They are not fascists either. The last world war was a moral crusade to defeat facism and it's the same moral values this time around. Doesn't sit well with your view of the world, does it? Fortunately they don't need your support, they'll do it anyway. Because they realise that it has to be done.

 

Are these people who are here to protect us the same people who shot dead Mr Menzies at a London tube station at the end of July?

 

The last thing we need are trigger-happy police, security services and US troops.

 

The only way to win this war is to fight fairly, unlike the terrorists we're fighting against.

 

The British Army were as hated, by Catholics, as the loyalists because they ended up adopting the same tactics and shooting innocent civilians (re. Bloody Sunday, where British troops masacared innocent protesters).

[P.K.]

PK i offer no solutions to the problems, neither do you, but you do offer hurt and pain to innocents, you are not a realist at all, the 2nd WW was fought to keep us free from the likes of you, you sound nothing at all like the allies but disturbingly like the axis we fought.

As to they will do it anyway, not in my name and if i had the choice then i would prosecute any person directly or indirectly involved in torture, it is plainly and obviously wrong

It's the likes of me that keep the likes of you free. With us around you don't even have to question your moral stance. You don't even need to get your hands dirty. We'll do it for you. Oh and by the way don't think that all those lifted are completely innocent. It's bound to be an outrageously expensive business not to be taken on lightly. There has to be a very good reason before all those expensive inter-continental flights. Sure there will be the odd mistake but when you are out to try and save innocent lives it's worth it. Don't you think so?

Frankly you should be grateful that there are those willing to risk everything to protect you. Even though you state how you abhor their methods they will still protect you despite yourself. They are not fascists either. The last world war was a moral crusade to defeat facism and it's the same moral values this time around. Doesn't sit well with your view of the world, does it? Fortunately they don't need your support, they'll do it anyway. Because they realise that it has to be done.

 

Are these people who are here to protect us the same people who shot dead Mr Menzies at a London tube station at the end of July?

 

The last thing we need are trigger-happy police, security services and US troops.

 

The only way to win this war is to fight fairly, unlike the terrorists we're fighting against.

 

The British Army were as hated, by Catholics, as the loyalists because they ended up adopting the same tactics and shooting innocent civilians (re. Bloody Sunday, where British troops masacared innocent protesters).

For trigger-happy also read fast-reacting. And don't make the mistake that those who shot Menzies don't regret it. Those who recognise that actions such as that have to happen feel as much sorrow as those who claim it shouldn't have happened at all. It's just they are not as naive. But to suggest that you can only win this by fighting fairly then you have never fought ANYTHING. They view a fair fight as a weakness to be exploited. As to the bog-trotters - they deluged us in filth. Yes civilians died in Bloody Sunday. Well here's a thought. If you don't want to be shot at by British Troops then don't riot. Don't spit at them. Don't fire at them. Don't fire-bomb them. The joke is that they were all that stood between your shitty, piss-smelling houses and the Protestants that wanted to burn you out!

 

Bollocks - Wednesday night!