Racism

[Chinahand]

The "Us Uses Foreign States To Torture People" Thread is becoming a debate on racism.

 

I'm interested in the arguments and think it would be sensible to separate it out so that people aren't confused about what people are talking about!

 

Below are the initial parts of the debate! ... I've tried to edit out superfluous stuff, if people are angry with my editing please PM me and I'll edit to add what I've deleted.

 

As to the bog-trotters - they deluged us in filth. Yes civilians died in Bloody Sunday. Well here's a thought. If you don't want to be shot at by British Troops then don't riot. Don't spit at them. Don't fire at them. Don't fire-bomb them. The joke is that they were all that stood between your shitty, piss-smelling houses and the Protestants that wanted to burn you out!

 

Bollocks - Wednesday night!

 

I respect your opinions especially as you say you are one of those fighting terrorists.

 

Your attitude towards the Catholic houses shows little regard to the political situation where many lived in shitty, piss-smelling houses because the Protestants had denied them jobs and the rite to vote (because of certain restrctions). The British army often did protect Catholic families but the few mistakes they made caused progress to halt and peace to be further away.

 

They were protesting not rioting. The protest was illegal but so were all protests at that time (and possibly even now) in the 6 counties. I hope you don't make my comments out to be offensive. I respect the army as they do a job I could never do.

 

As to the bog-trotters - they deluged us in filth. Yes civilians died in Bloody Sunday. Well here's a thought. If you don't want to be shot at by British Troops then don't riot. Don't spit at them. Don't fire at them. Don't fire-bomb them. The joke is that they were all that stood between your shitty, piss-smelling houses and the Protestants that wanted to burn you out!

 

Your final comments sums it up, right wing, bigoted and racist

 

 

Your final comments sums it up, right wing, bigoted and racist

Since when has defending those living in squalor been right wing, bigoted and racist? I think you've engaged keyboard before your brain is in gear.

 

 

Re your postings about bogtrotters, shitty piss smelling houses etc, can you not see the bigotry?

 

God love you, you come from a strange place

 

Re your postings about bogtrotters, shitty piss smelling houses etc, can you not see the bigotry?

Nope. I see no bigotry whatsoever in some people living in squalor. By all means spell it out. Perhaps using pm to stop boring the dwindling readership?

 

[Chinahand]

At this point Phildo said:

 

Hurrah! Nothing like cheap racism to really add validity to your views on world politics. Come on, Enoch, tell me more.

 

For some reason it messes up the quotation boxes to quote it!

 

 

Racism doesn't come cheap.

 

In any event I'm a man of my time. Take the Black and White Minstrel Show, where did it all go wrong....

 

Racism doesn't come cheap.

There is NOTHING so cheap as bigotry.

 

 

im of the popinion that racism doesnt occur out of ignorance, but out of experience.

 

both good and bad. the phrase "asians have almost natural entrepenuerial (sp?) skills" is no less racist than saying "white people are stupid" and vice versa. but yeah, i do believe that racism is not ignorance but experience.

 

I had an Uncle, a lovely man who i miss greatly and he was a bigot/racist.

He would tell me, son i would never knowingly speak to a catholic or a campbell, his bigotry was learned from infancy in his enviroment, not from any experiance of catholics or campbells.

 

fair comment, however, i would hasten to add that you uncle, lovely man though he could have been, was stupid. to make generalisations on people having no experience of them, is not racist or bigoted, just stupid in the most broad sense of the word.

 

"racist? how can i be racist? i didnt even know those little arab bastards existed til 9/11" to quote a comedian. ignorance is ignorance. racism is racism. the two are quite separate.

 

quite right, ignorance or lack of experience is one of many routes to racism. On a nice note, in later years my Uncle recanted and regretted his earlier bigotry and it was his time spent on the island away from Glasgow that taught him the error of his ways.

 

Hurrah! Nothing like cheap racism to really add validity to your views on world politics. Come on, Enoch, tell me more.

There is NOTHING so cheap as bigotry.

Dear Oh dear Mr Phildo, not a little tired and confused are we?

 

If scum find it objectionable to be referred to as scum, well good. But it's not bigoted or racist, it's because of how they are. Cause and effect. Basically no different from having a good laugh at the thicko, slack-jawed, burberry apes called Chavs. So don't bother climbing onto any assumed moral high ground to try and take a pop at it as in my eyes you're just making a fool of yourself.

[Chinahand]

As far as I can see we are arguing almost about the definition of words:

 

I think PK is implying that a "bog trotter" is someone who deliberately lives in squalor and so its ok to call them what they are.

 

As far as he's concerned he's calling a spade a spade.

 

But then again I might be wrong ... let debate continue for as long as people are interested ... about 5 mins I reckon!

[Stavros]

I think PK is implying that a "bog trotter" is someone who deliberately lives in squalor and so its ok to call them what they are.

 

I wondered why people were calling me that!

 

Stav.

[ButterflyMaiden]

It doesnt seem to me that PK has actually stated anything which may be construed as racist.

 

His views are certainly forthright and lack subtlety. I can well imagine they might cause offence.

 

However, it does seem, to me, he may be expressing his outrage at people who live in circumstances and

 

after a style which he perceives as a departure from the norm.

 

In addition his comments are aimed at people who, after all, belong to the same racial type as himself.

 

Racist ? I dont think so. Ill judged ? Maybe.

[mollag]

As to the bog-trotters - they deluged us in filth. Yes civilians died in Bloody Sunday. Well here's a thought. If you don't want to be shot at by British Troops then don't riot. Don't spit at them. Don't fire at them. Don't fire-bomb them. The joke is that they were all that stood between your shitty, piss-smelling houses and the Protestants that wanted to burn you out!

 

 

There is a danger of losing the wrongness of this by hair splitting to the nth.

 

The quote says the bogtrotters, not some, a few,, the majority it is meant to cover all. The addition of protestents can only mean irish catholics are the ones in shittty, piss sme

elling houses.

Some may not consider Irish people to be a different race, then call it plain nationalistic, religious bigotry for that is what it is.

 

Is there really anyone who can agree with these gross insults?

[ans]

For some reason it messes up the quotation boxes to quote it!

 

Just so you know, that's because the forum software has a limit of 10 sets of QUOTE tags in a single post. It's a soft coded limit and we could change it, but for the number of times it's an issue, it's not worth it.

[P.K.]

As far as I can see we are arguing almost about the definition of words:

I think PK is implying that a "bog trotter" is someone who deliberately lives in squalor and so its ok to call them what they are.

Complete bollocks. Why would anyone deliberately live in squalor? Get real.

As far as he's concerned he's calling a spade a spade.

Correct.

 

Unfortunately like most you seem to view it as a paradox.....

 

I would be particularly interested in the opinion of ans, Observer, Mission and Ean on this difficult issue as I really value their opinions...

[ButterflyMaiden]

Is there really anyone who can agree with these gross insults?

 

I would imagine there is a significant minority willing to agree.

 

For the record I strongly disagree with them !

 

When I posted my reply I was trying to stay on topic. ChinaHand had created a new thread on the specific

 

topic of racism. Context and all that ........

[Declan]

Complete bollocks. Why would anyone deliberately live in squalor? Get real.

 

Laziness.

[P.K.]

Complete bollocks. Why would anyone deliberately live in squalor? Get real.

Laziness.

 

In my experience it's more likely they really just don't care that they should at least try and meet a certain standard - call it civilised for lack of a better definition.

[Cret]

Don't want to get involved with the whole racism thing but surely with regard to 'squalor', "A first man's squalor is second man's palace, and first man's palace is a third man's squalor" - thus said Confucious - circa the old days.

 

I think perspective was what he was getting at.

[Rhumsaa]

It's priorities isn't it? there used to be a time when people would have no clothes and little food but would hate to have a poor standard of funeral or an unpainted gatepost because the neighbours would think badly of them...

 

You can't judge others on your own personal standards... plus when it comes to squalor try Mauritania

[Chinahand]

In addition his comments are aimed at people who, after all, belong to the same racial type as himself.

Racist ? I dont think so. Ill judged ? Maybe.

 

 

When I posted my reply I was trying to stay on topic. ChinaHand had created a new thread on the specific topic of racism. Context and all that ........

 

Just to say, my understanding, and the UN's, is that discriminating due to ethnic background is racist. Attacking Germans, Gypsies, Italians, Brits etc etc etc even if you are also a German, Gypsy, Italian or a Brit doesn't make it any less racist.

 

The International Convention for the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination (I.C.E.R.D) states in Article 1.1:

In this Convention, the term “racial discrimination” shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

 

 

 

UN definition of racial discrimination, International Convention of Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, 1969

“Any theory which involves the claim that racial or ethnic groups are inherently superior or inferior, thus implying that some would be entitled to dominate or eliminate others, presumed to be inferior, or which bases value judgements on racial differentiation, has no scientific foundation and is contrary to the moral and ethical principles of humanity.”

 

 

"As to the bog-trotters ... Don't spit at them. Don't fire at them. Don't fire-bomb them. The joke is that they were all that stood between your shitty, piss-smelling houses and the Protestants that wanted to burn you out!"

 

My analysis is that it is highly likely that a significant percentage of the people the people PK has called "the bog-trotters", definitely numbering in the tens of thousands, and probably in the hundreds of thousands, didn't do any of the things he has accused them of actively doing; they didn't spit, fire or firebomb the army. They may have lived in what most of us would call squalor, but the poverty and deglect the political system in Northern Ireland had created was a significant factor in explaining that.

 

A very high proportion of these people had human dignity, wanted to improve there lifes by their own efforts, were not involved in terrorism or political violence, but were descriminated against, denied jobs, education and basic civic amenities and rights due to their background. I call that racism: these people are not been judged due to their individual merits, but due to their ethnic/racial background.

 

P.K.'s comments perpetuate that.

 

Thousands of people didn't spit at, fire at, or fire-bomb squadies, many didn't even peacefully demonstrate, they kept their heads down and tried to get on in life, but they were were subject to discrimination, threats of, and actual violence.

 

By damning all due to the behaviour of some you fall into a lazy mode of thinking that is going to result in continued failures to communicate and end conflict. I find P.K.'s language, whether on the people Londonderry or Falluja, so sweeping that it adds almost nothing to the debate; the prejudice in the language swamps out any subtleties that he is actually trying to say, and is offensive to others and so distracts the debate.

 

Please note the US Tortures People thread became a PK stop being racist Thread.

 

P.K. has demanded others engage brain before using keyboard, I'd advice him to do the same, if his, often valid and original, contributions are going to be given more credance.

[P.K.]

Just to say, my understanding, and the UN's, is that discriminating due to ethnic background is racist. Attacking Germans, Gypsies, Italians, Brits etc etc etc even if you are also a German, Gypsy, Italian or a Brit doesn't make it any less racist.

 

The International Convention for the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination (I.C.E.R.D) states in Article 1.1:

In this Convention, the term “racial discrimination” shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

 

UN definition of racial discrimination, International Convention of Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, 1969

“Any theory which involves the claim that racial or ethnic groups are inherently superior or inferior, thus implying that some would be entitled to dominate or eliminate others, presumed to be inferior, or which bases value judgements on racial differentiation, has no scientific foundation and is contrary to the moral and ethical principles of humanity.”

Think I cared about UN conventions on racism at the time? I hope you have a really wonderful life on whichever planet it is that you inhabit.

Thousands of people didn't spit at, fire at, or fire-bomb squaddies, many didn't even peacefully demonstrate, they kept their heads down and tried to get on in life, but they were were subject to discrimination, threats of, and actual violence.

 

By damning all due to the behaviour of some you fall into a lazy mode of thinking that is going to result in continued failures to communicate and end conflict. I find P.K.'s language, whether on the people Londonderry or Falluja, so sweeping that it adds almost nothing to the debate; the prejudice in the language swamps out any subtleties that he is actually trying to say, and is offensive to others and so distracts the debate.

That's what we called them. That was our generic term for them. Racist? Of course not. We were always aware that we were there so that Mrs Murphy could go and do her weekly shopping in safety. We were always aware that those in front of us who were spitting, throwing eggs, rotten fruit, used tampons etc etc were very much the minority. We were also aware that they were taking out their frustrations on us for the general discrimination that they lived under and kept them in squalor. But it didn't stop us from having a growing hatred for them because at the end of the day we were only human too. They behaved like animals with no regard whatsoever for the fact that we put ourselves at risk to protect them. And the "harridans of hate" were the worst of the lot.

P.K. has demanded others engage brain before using keyboard, I'd advice him to do the same, if his, often valid and original, contributions are going to be given more credance.

The word is advise and from what I have read above you have a real cheek to use the word "credance".

I would be particularly interested in the opinion of ans, Observer, Mission and Ean on this difficult issue as I really value their opinions...

"Planet Earth calling..............."

 

And a Merry Xmas to all our readers......