Racism

[ButterflyMaiden]

Just to say, my understanding, and the UN's, is that discriminating due to ethnic background is racist. Attacking Germans, Gypsies, Italians, Brits etc etc etc even if you are also a German, Gypsy, Italian or a Brit doesn't make it any less racist.

 

The International Convention for the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination (I.C.E.R.D) states in Article 1.1:

In this Convention, the term “racial discrimination” shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

.......

UN definition of racial discrimination, International Convention of Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, 1969

“Any theory which involves the claim that racial or ethnic groups are inherently superior or inferior, thus implying that some would be entitled to dominate or eliminate others, presumed to be inferior, or which bases value judgements on racial differentiation, has no scientific foundation and is contrary to the moral and ethical principles of humanity.”

 

I do think it is reasonable, if you separate out parts of an existing thread and use them to kick off a new thread , entitled racism, to expect replies to be on topic.

 

You have offered two credible definitions of racism. With all due respect, and trying to stay on topic, I cannot see PK has made any statements which would be classified as racist by reference to your credible sources.

 

I do not like or agree with the content or tone of what PK has posted. His forthright comments, however, seem to be informed, not by race, but by an extreme reaction to what he obviously perceives as a departure from normality. Sorry ChinaHand, his opinions may be offensive, but racist ? I dont think so.

[Chinahand]

Hi Butterfly Maiden,

 

All I can do is give an analogy.

 

An American Policeman during the LA riots:

 

Now I've something to say to the [insert suitable derogatory term of your choice clearly identifying the recipiants as a member of an ethnic minority, I think we can all guess what word Tarantino would use!] who live in South Central.

 

Don't rape, don't deal drugs, don't steal, don't pimp, don't murder, don't riot and remember that it is the members of the Los Angeles Police Department who are protecting your crack ridden doss houses from being burned down.

 

Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but I think my statement is pure unadulturated racism; I've tried to make it as close as I can get to P.K.'s; we can argue for days about whether a policeman who isn't subject to the abuse listed is different from a soldier who was etc etc, but at a basic level I feel both statements are close enough to each other to be comparable and I also feel both are racist.

 

Mollaq and Phildo both directly said P.K. comments were racist and the Intelligent Thug entered the Topic discussing the meaning of racism. As a result I thought I'd separate the discussion out from the "US using foreign states to Torture" Topic.

 

I totally agree with Mollaq that it's the sweeping nature of the comments and the fact they specifically identified the people involved as the Irish Catholics (not some or a few or many etc) that make it racist, you've ignored this in all your replies and my similar analysis.

 

If the LA policeman had said ....

 

I'd just like to remind all the rapists, drug dealers, thiefs, pimps, murders, and rioters in South Central that I have a duty to protect every house no matter who lives in it and whether it is a familly home or a doss house.

 

... then I don't think it would be a racist statement.

 

I'm sure P.K.'s comments could also be re-written to give exactly the same impression of P.K.'s reaction to the extreme events and living conditions he was viewing (ie still keeping the reaction that you are saying is the issue) but without what I see as the racist side to it. If that is so surely your analysis is incomplete?

 

Not wanting to get agressive or anything ...

 

The Topic is trying to understand what racism is. I've tried to explain what I think it is and tried to explain why I think P.K.'s comments were racist ... ie I have tried to stay on topic, you've disagreed with me ... I don't understand why ... if your still interested please try and explain.

[ButterflyMaiden]

I think it might be helpful to state the obvious.

 

During the time period referenced by PK :-

 

N.Ireland Catholics suffered social exclusion, were posited as dirty and lazy and suffered numerous forms of

 

discrimination on the grounds of their perceived potential disloyalty.

 

In other words, Catholics in N. Ireland were associated with a particular identity. That identity was a

 

significant departure from the Protestant / British norm.

 

In my opinion, this was a classic example of social construction, but that is neither here nor there.

 

There is a long and complex history as to why this situation arose. However, it had nothing at all to do with

 

race or racism.

 

PK is railing against this identity, an identity which posits Catholics as a group of social deviants.

 

 

In my opinion, he is wrong, but he isnt guilty of racism.

[P.K.]

Mollaq and Phildo both directly said P.K. comments were racist and the Intelligent Thug entered the Topic discussing the meaning of racism.

It would seem there are those who are somewhat "intellectually challenged" (Phildo) and struggle to differentiate between calling a spade a spade and racism. Of course, the net result is pretty much the same i.e. using extremely derogatory and insulting descriptions as a means of showing hatred and contempt. Which is fair enough but hardly earth-shattering news. I do find it amusing that all these knights in shining armour immediately sneer at you from their assumed moral high ground when they can't even grasp the basics. They're a joke.

 

For me calling a spade a spade is looking down on folks for how they are. Racism is looking down on them simply for what they are. It's a huge difference and by the way I'm not racist.

 

There is no racial bigotry here. We do not look down on n~ggers, sp~cs, k~kes or w~ps. Here you are all equally worthless.

[Lonan3]

I'm torn between a hatred of bigotry/racism and an almost equal hatred of 'PC' crap.

Prventing people from expressing their opinions in the terms they feel most appropriate is often simply denying them the freedom that is being promoted for others. While it's clearly wrong to label enormous groups of people beneath the umbrella of a derogatory term, we sometimes seem to trip over ourselves in an effort to avoid giving offence to anyone - to such a degree that it's almost as if we're being governed by the 'thought police' of Orwell's nightmare 1984 vision.

[Chinahand]

I'm torn between a hatred of bigotry/racism and an almost equal hatred of 'PC' crap.

Prventing people from expressing their opinions in the terms they feel most appropriate is often simply denying them the freedom that is being promoted for others. While it's clearly wrong to label enormous groups of people beneath the umbrella of a derogatory term, we sometimes seem to trip over ourselves in an effort to avoid giving offence to anyone - to such a degree that it's almost as if we're being governed by the 'thought police' of Orwell's nightmare 1984 vision.

 

Lonan3, I definitely don't think the PC brigade should censor people, but the point for me is that when someone says something that is bigoted, racist, or hatespeech, what ever the term is, they shouldn't be surprised if that is called into question.

 

Having someone who hates have to justify that hatred will open up the issues to be debated.

 

Having someone who does not hate, but simply is being mentally lazy using the term may come to understand the problems they are creating by using it and hence stop it.

 

I'm in favour of a dialogue not censorship; as P.K. has said the issues were complex and having used tampons and hate speech thrown at you everyday, plus the occassional bullet and car bomb makes for real anger.

 

Reconciliation is not an easy process, but normalization has to be achieved eventually. I've seen very real and large attempts to do this in South Africa, and I would presume they are underway in schools in Northern Ireland etc.

 

If censorship makes people keep in their anger then hatred won't end; rather the reasons for that anger must be identified and removed.

 

I don't pretent its easy or even possible, we are in the realm of John Lennon's Imagine, and I believe we should try to imagine a world were racism has been abandoned. Racism HAS been massively reduced in the last 100 years, I hope this can continue ... "... call me a dreamer."